Connor Barwin 3 years later

[dryheat44]

Why are we assuming that Hughes, Barwin, or any other player for that matter, would have an identical career path if they had been drafted by Belichick? Neither player is playing in Belichick's scheme.

Might as well argue that Corn Flakes should have drafted Tony the Tiger or Dig 'Em instead of Cornelius the Rooster.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Why are we assuming that Hughes, Barwin, or any other player for that matter, would have an identical career path if they had been drafted by Belichick? Neither player is playing in Belichick's scheme.

Might as well argue that Corn Flakes should have drafted Tony the Tiger or Dig 'Em instead of Cornelius the Rooster.

How do we know they wouldnt have been even better under BB?

 

[dryheat44]

How do we know they wouldnt have been even better under BB?

We don't. That's kind of my point. Hughes might look much better playing off the line. Barwin might look much worse in a 2-gap scheme. Remember what Merriman used to be able to do in the Phillips 3-4. Brooks Reed came into that system and , as a rookie, made Mario Williams expendable. Do you really think Reed is the better player? Or the opposites might be true in the alternate universe and Barwin might be an all-pro, and Hughes washed out of the league.

We just don't know, so it's pretty useless to say that Belichick F-ed up by not drafting them. I mean Barwin looked like il busto epico before Phillips came to Houston, and the anti-Barwin crowd, for lack of a better term, got to say "I told you so".

Players' current success on other teams, or lack of it, just isn't transferable.

 

[mayoclinic]

Players' current success on other teams, or lack of it, just isn't transferable.

This is absolutely true. People drool over every prospect we missed out or passed on who turns out to be successful with another team. But that success wouldn't necessarily have transferred with the Pats. Neither would the failure of other guys. So many factors go into making a player successful, and the situation in which they are put can make or break someone. Mike Wallace and Clay Matthews might have bombed with the Pats. Jerry Hughes might have ben a stud. We'll never know.

As for Barwin, I do think that we can fairly say (1) he has proven to be a very good player for Houston, justifying the hype that surrounded him before the 2009 draft and proving him to be more than just a "workout warrior", and (2) his skill set and intangibles projected well to the Patriots. That's about all. Then again, BB felt that Shawn Crable's skill set and intangibles projected well, too.

 

[Off The Grid]

Barwin looked like il busto epico before Phillips came to Houston...

WRONG!! :bricks:

Talk about Revisionist History!! Sheesh!!

Barwin had a very promising rookie Campaign, and then missed his second year to injury.*

He was clearly still a promising young player who hadn't even hinted at failure.

So much for "Il Busto Epico"!!

*Remind anyone of anyone around here??

 

[dryheat44]

Then again, BB felt that Shawn Crable's skill set and intangibles projected well, too.

The difference is that Crable was a 3rd round pick. I feel confident that if Barwin was available in the 3rd round, Belichick would have drafted him.

 

[IllegalContact]

scheme? what scheme? what scheme are the pats deploying now?

and as far as whether it is 1 gap or 2, it's mostly either/or to an OLB.

furthermore, the fact that he has succeeded as well as he has combined with the total ineptitude of the 2 picks made by the pats (butler and brace) can lead down a logic path that the most probable outcome would have been that barwin would have contributed far more than the other 2 combined. also include the versatility that barwin has displayed over the course over his football career which provides the high probability that he would have adjusted well to whatever the pats would have put in front of him. at this point in his career, he has outplayed vrabel at the same point of his career.

it is pointless at this point, I know, but your argument is much like the catholic church's perspective on people who say there is no proof that god exists by saying that there is no proof that he doesn't exist.

We don't. That's kind of my point. Hughes might look much better playing off the line. Barwin might look much worse in a 2-gap scheme. Remember what Merriman used to be able to do in the Phillips 3-4. Brooks Reed came into that system and , as a rookie, made Mario Williams expendable. Do you really think Reed is the better player? Or the opposites might be true in the alternate universe and Barwin might be an all-pro, and Hughes washed out of the league.

We just don't know, so it's pretty useless to say that Belichick F-ed up by not drafting them. I mean Barwin looked like il busto epico before Phillips came to Houston, and the anti-Barwin crowd, for lack of a better term, got to say "I told you so".

Players' current success on other teams, or lack of it, just isn't transferable.

 

[dryheat44]

scheme? what scheme? what scheme are the pats deploying now?

and as far as whether it is 1 gap or 2, it's mostly either/or to an OLB.

.

Wrong.

You can look at Wade Phillips defenses for the past 10 years, and the OLBs have high sack numbers. There primary, secondary, and tertiary job is to pressure the quarterback. Any responsibilities in the run game is coincidental. Responsibilities in coverage are non-existant.

Look, I like Barwin. I thought he was well worth a 2nd round pick for this team. It's just foolish to look at numbers on another team and assume it would be the same here. You mentioned Vrabel earlier. Look at the difference in Vrabel in Pittsburgh and New England. Look at James Farrior's Jets career vs. Steelers. What happened to Ray Lewis when the Ravens changed up to a traditional 3-4 defense, and then when they switched back to a nominal 3-4 that was FAIAP a 4-3. Or those other Steelers linebackers that leave and do nothing (Kendrell Bell, and one more within the last few years whose name escapes me). There's countless examples, especially in the linebacking world -- watch what DeMeco Ryans does this year in Philadelphia compared to last year in Houston. Different defenses have different roles for their positions. Very few players will excel in all schemes. I think Barwin would have been successful here, but I can certainly understand why Belichick didn't want to use a high draft pick on a projection of a player who had one year of DE experience.

 

[Coach42]

The Connor Barwin conundrum an argument which will NEVER die. IF only we could have paired him with Adam Seward all Pats fans could die happy.

 

[mayoclinic]

Wrong.

You can look at Wade Phillips defenses for the past 10 years, and the OLBs have high sack numbers. There primary, secondary, and tertiary job is to pressure the quarterback. Any responsibilities in the run game is coincidental. Responsibilities in coverage are non-existant.

Look, I like Barwin. I thought he was well worth a 2nd round pick for this team. It's just foolish to look at numbers on another team and assume it would be the same here. You mentioned Vrabel earlier. Look at the difference in Vrabel in Pittsburgh and New England. Look at James Farrior's Jets career vs. Steelers. What happened to Ray Lewis when the Ravens changed up to a traditional 3-4 defense, and then when they switched back to a nominal 3-4 that was FAIAP a 4-3. Or those other Steelers linebackers that leave and do nothing (Kendrell Bell, and one more within the last few years whose name escapes me). There's countless examples, especially in the linebacking world -- watch what DeMeco Ryans does this year in Philadelphia compared to last year in Houston. Different defenses have different roles for their positions. Very few players will excel in all schemes. I think Barwin would have been successful here, but I can certainly understand why Belichick didn't want to use a high draft pick on a projection of a player who had one year of DE experience.

Yes and no. Phillips' defense may have accelerated Barwin's sack numbers, but I think he would have succeeded regardless. And I think he would have been successful for BB - but probably in a different way.

Barwin had a fine rookie season as a sub pass rusher in a 4-3. He reportedly looked great in training camp his second year before getting injured, and great things were expected of him. He had 4.5 sacks as a rookie, the same as LaMarr Woodley and Jason Pierre-Paul, and while we'll never know what he would have done if Houston had stayed in a 4-3 and if Wade Phillips hadn't become the DC, I think it's fair to say that he had the skill set to be successful. Phillips' defense may be tailor made to Barwin's athleticism, and he may never have put up equivalent sack numbers for the Patriots, but I honestly believe that Barwin was one of those rare guys who did have the skill set to excel in all schemes - as a 4-3 pass rusher, a 3-4 pass rushing OLB, a 3-4 OLB in a 2-gap scheme, in coverage, etc. He's strong enough to set the edge and play the run and fluid enough to cover TEs and RBs.

 

[IllegalContact]

reverse engineered arguments such as yours simply have no merit

farrior and lewis were both ILB's/MLB's .... a job whose responsibilites DO change in one scheme versus the next because it affects the analysis of gaps they have to attack. also, you do realize that farrior was an outstanding player who had the most tackles in his career while a jet, don't you? lewis just didn't like to have to take on OG's.....he is much happier running around hitting little people.....can't say I blame him

as for vrabel in pittsburgh, he was simply stuck behind some guys named gildon and porter

as for OLB's in a 1 gap not being in coverage, that's another fallacy you've conjured up........OLB's in that scheme have had plenty of INT's and PD's and spend plenty of time in coverage. your vision is skewed by merriman and ware, who just happened to be so damned good at rushing the passer, that you hace to send them.

I am very confident that barwin would have picked up whatever would have been asked of him here......I mean look at who the pats were using at the time......TBC - could he cover?

the more realistic scenario is that the current front office never drafted a blue chip OLB, and was probably scared to start....wihch manifested itself into the pats having to take jermaine cunningham who is by far a bigger stretch with the notion of being able to cover as a 3-4 OLB than barwin.

your logic simply doesn't line up

Wrong.

You can look at Wade Phillips defenses for the past 10 years, and the OLBs have high sack numbers. There primary, secondary, and tertiary job is to pressure the quarterback. Any responsibilities in the run game is coincidental. Responsibilities in coverage are non-existant.

Look, I like Barwin. I thought he was well worth a 2nd round pick for this team. It's just foolish to look at numbers on another team and assume it would be the same here. You mentioned Vrabel earlier. Look at the difference in Vrabel in Pittsburgh and New England. Look at James Farrior's Jets career vs. Steelers. What happened to Ray Lewis when the Ravens changed up to a traditional 3-4 defense, and then when they switched back to a nominal 3-4 that was FAIAP a 4-3. Or those other Steelers linebackers that leave and do nothing (Kendrell Bell, and one more within the last few years whose name escapes me). There's countless examples, especially in the linebacking world -- watch what DeMeco Ryans does this year in Philadelphia compared to last year in Houston. Different defenses have different roles for their positions. Very few players will excel in all schemes. I think Barwin would have been successful here, but I can certainly understand why Belichick didn't want to use a high draft pick on a projection of a player who had one year of DE experience.