Congratulations Robert Kraft for helping lead this franchise to historic success

[shmessy]

"What he has done is unprecedented in American sports". Again, you're giving Kraft the credit for the franchise's success. I'll give it to mainly BB, Brady and the players. Not to mention the Yankees 10 World championships from 1947 to 1962, and the Celtics 12 Championships from 57-76 would make it decidedly not unprecedented.

Yeah, those dynasties did a GREAT job with free agency, the salary cap and 31 other teams! Amazing how they kept their key players 10-15 years. Why can't the 21st century Patriots do that?

 

[RayClay]

Your idea of context is laughable.

I wasn't aware I needed to own an NFL team to be able to express an opinion on a messageboard, perhaps you can share with us what NFL team you own.

Making a hypothetical, unprovable alternate reality list of owners who may have managed it better does nothing to further the discussion. The fact that this is what you hang your hat on only illustrates the weakness of that argument. It's unprovable, therefore you can dismiss anyone listed out of hand.

You go on to say that I "discount the ten years he spent planning to be in position to buy, his years as a fan, his maneuvering for the least bit of infrastructure so he could build a world class stadium and his hiring of management, and maintenance of the world class atmosphere, which has allowed us to have the best stretch of football in thre history of the NFL." - Please tell me when I discounted any of that or why that matters when discussing these other issues. I'm not aware of any rule that the good things you do in life give you a never ending clean slate for the rest of eternity, completely free of criticism and judgement. I, like most other functioning adults, am capable of seeing both the good and the bad people do and be able to judge and discuss each circumstance on it's own merits.

I do agree that your analogy was ridiculous.

You can say whatever you want. You're an American citizen.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yeah, those dynasties did a GREAT job with free agency, the salary cap and 31 other teams! Amazing how they kept their key players 10-15 years. Why can't the 21st century Patriots do that?

Too bad you didn't list those qualifications when proclaiming the Patriots success UNPRECEDENTED in American Sports over a post WW II 20+ year period. Keep moving the goalposts though.

 

[shmessy]

Too bad you didn't list those qualifications when proclaiming the Patriots success UNPRECEDENTED in American Sports over a post WW II 20+ year period. Keep moving the goalposts though.

They were always part of the scenario.

It is unprecedented. None of those dynasties had to go through what the Patriots went through.

The only one that can be in the same conversation is the San Antonio Spurs, and that is in a sports where 5-6 dominant and healthy players can mean all the difference.

What don't you understand?

But, ok, you have a point about the periods being different - - one can say that the Yankees with a hard salary cap, 31 other teams and free agency may not have won more than 2-3 WS in the 40's and 50's, and that these Patriots with their ownership, stable HC position with BB and QB position with Brady could have won 10 SBs in this millennium (actually they may well still come close). We'll never really know.

But step back a second - - - we are debating between the Yankee Dynasty, the Celtic Dynasty and the Patriot Dynasty - - - - digest that for a second while you condemn Kraft's overall ownership and people complain about what he's 'done to their lives' with people teasing them at work and whatnot.

The guy screwed up big time. It will always be remembered and the stain will never wash off. I agree and I have condemned him for it on this very website several times when it occurred and subsequently. But the fans stomping their feet and acting like their parents forgot their birthday are deserving of Tuna's and Sir Charles' statements.

 

[RayClay]

It's like having to explain to the police how you let somebody mug you.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

They were always part of the scenario.

It is unprecedented. None of those dynasties had to go through what the Patriots went through.

The only one that can be in the same conversation is the San Antonio Spurs, and that is in a sports where 5-6 dominant and healthy players can mean all the difference.

What don't you understand?

But, ok, you have a point about the periods being different - - one can say that the Yankees with a hard salary cap, 31 other teams and free agency may not have won more than 2-3 WS in the 40's and 50's, and that these Patriots with their ownership, stable HC position with BB and QB position with Brady could have won 10 SBs between 1994-2015. We'll never really know.

Then you should say what you mean, If you want those factors to be considered they have should be included in the original statement because 4 championships in 15 years is certainly not UNPRECEDENTED. By sticking in those qualifiers after the fact, you're also making your original statement of since WWII completely pointless, since of course they weren't dealing with salary caps and free agency. Why not just say since the beginning of the time while you're at it. Being the most successful team since the advent of both free agency and the salary cap would disqualify just about every team before Kraft, making your UNPRECEDENTED distinction distinctly less impressive since NFL unrestricted free agency started in 92, the salary cap in 94, the same year Kraft bought the Patriots. MLB still doesn't have a true salary cap, NHL didn't have one until 2004. The NBA has had both since 88, maybe you could explain to me again why the Lakers 7 championships (or Spurs 6) since 2000 is somehow worse than the Patriots UNPRECEDENTED 4.

 

[1960Pats]

Walter Brown was a great, GREAT man.

But.....talk about an owner whose teams did nothing but lose until a transcendant head coach and prodigy ballplayer fell into his lap!

We're blessed to have had Red and Bill as two of the four coaches of our major sports teams.

They were always part of the scenario.

It is unprecedented. None of those dynasties had to go through what the Patriots went through.

The only one that can be in the same conversation is the San Antonio Spurs, and that is in a sports where 5-6 dominant and healthy players can mean all the difference.

What don't you understand?

But, ok, you have a point about the periods being different - - one can say that the Yankees with a hard salary cap, 31 other teams and free agency may not have won more than 2-3 WS in the 40's and 50's, and that these Patriots with their ownership, stable HC position with BB and QB position with Brady could have won 10 SBs in this millennium (actually they may well still come close). We'll never really know.

But step back a second - - - we are debating between the Yankee Dynasty, the Celtic Dynasty and the Patriot Dynasty - - - - digest that for a second while you condemn Kraft's overall ownership and people complain about what he's 'done to their lives' with people teasing them at work and whatnot.

The guy screwed up big time. It will always be remembered and the stain will never wash off. I agre and I have condemned him for it on this very website several times when it occurred. But the fans stomping their feet and acting like their parents forgot their birthday are deserving of Tuna's and Sir Charles' statements.

I know that you and I have had exchanges where we congratulated Bob Kraft for all that he has done for the Pats.

However, you feel he screwed up by mistake this time and I don't.

And nobody that I remember is asking for his head as has been implied. He's still one of the better owners.

 

[1960Pats]

It's like having to explain to the police how you let somebody mug you.

No it isn't. It's like witnessing one of your friends being mugged and not taking any action at all.

 

[shmessy]

No it isn't. It's like witnessing one of your friends being mugged and not taking any action at all.

Please.

Goodell took away the draft picks and fined $1 million from BRADY???????

 

[flasox27]

Steelers threatened to move until Allegheny County agreed to fund via the taxpayers (and they ain't rich there) over 70%+ of the cost of Heinz Field.

Giants fans pay the highest PSL (New England fan "What's a PSL???") cost in American sports.

And good for Rooney and Mara for leaving Out of His Element Tomlin and Past His Usage Date Coughlin still in there to screw up games late in 4th quarters!

Would YOU trade places the past 21 years with a Steeler or Giant fan??????

"I happen to think if they had BB as the coach and Brady as their QB their record would be similar to the Pats and there wouldn't be a peep about camera placement or ball pressure"

So where were those two ownerships when Kraft was out there turning over every stone and crazily giving up a first round pick for a previously under .500 HC?????? It's always funny when posters write as if BB fell into Kraft's lap like a snowflake.

"I happen to think if they had BB as the coach....."



.

I always enjoy reminding you when you develop amnesia about how Kraft ran Parcells out of town and rejected hiring BB while hiring Bobby Grier and Pete Carroll who managed to turn a Superbowl team into a 500 team in three years. I would also like to remind you about the circumstances that allowed BB to be available to be hired. BB had a contract with Leon Hess for which he was paid a sizable bonus to become the next head coach of the Jets. Hess had the misfortune to die and the team was sold to Woody Johnson who was willing to hire him as a head coach but BB to his credit wanted to work for a better owner which Kraft certainly was. Give credit to Kraft yes for ransoming BB when it was obvious that the incompetents he previously hired had turned the draft picks he received for Parcells, which were approximately the same he gave up, into garbage. Don't disparage the value of BB as a potential head coach. His record as the head coach of the Browns was greatly hindered by the actions of his owner Modell and he had rehabilitated himself through his performance as a great defensive co-ordinator. While the Giants could have used a HC like BB, the Steelers had Chuck Noll and Bill Cower who were quality themselves.

 

[flasox27]

Yeah, I conceded he put that in, another example of what he did to ensure only he had a realistic chance at the time. It's possible another ownership would want to pay the league 20 million, if approved to move then also get into an unknown and expensive litigation with Kraft, but realistically Kraft had check and mate.

You know as much as we cringed at his groveling after a league assault that was not his fault [all he could have done to prevent it is sell the team, he had no power to control gooddell] His ownership should be judged in totality.

Was he a good owner? No. I would say he has been the best owner in the history of Boston sports and I'm pretty aware of all of them, unless my memory fails. I used to wave to that racist hero worshipper Tom Yawkey [who dressed like he took anything that fit out of the good will box] before games when I was a vendor at Fenway for 4 years, and he was probably number 2!

If I'm missing some great owners who spent a lot of time, money and risk to ensure they bought the team and also overcame obstacles to build a great stadium to watch it in, here's the place to make that argument.

Oh, also went to great lengths to get the right management team and let the "do their job."

It is probably before your time but the best owner in the history of Boston sports was Walter Brown who brought in the greatest coach/general manager in the history of Boston sports, Red Auerbach and created the greatest dynasty in the history of Boston sports. Unlike you I do not think creating a great stadium is a requisite for a great owner otherwise you would have to include a person like the owner of the Cowboys undeservedly into the group

 

[shmessy]

I always enjoy reminding you when you develop amnesia about how Kraft ran Parcells out of town ......

No amnesia at all. Glad he "ran Parcells out of town".

In retrospect, given the condition where Parcells left his next three teams, this was one of Kraft's best moves.

The Patriots were really the only one of those four teams to ever RECOVER from Hurricane Tuna. The others never ever did.

 

[shmessy]

It is probably before your time but the best owner in the history of Boston sports was Walter Brown who brought in the greatest coach/general manager in the history of Boston sports, Red Auerbach and created the greatest dynasty in the history of Boston sports. Unlike you I do not think creating a great stadium is a requisite for a great owner otherwise you would have to include a person like the owner of the Cowboys undeservedly into the group

Once again, Walter Brown was a GREAT owner and a better man.

But........
8 team league and fewer people in the Garden than were watching the loser Bruins until his death.

Neither Brown nor Kraft ever went 2 decades without a Championship, let alone only TWO playoff game wins.

And your comparison to the Cowboys $325 million in public funding stadium is HIGH-larious.

On top of that, have you heard the acronym PSL?

Dallas Cowboys PSL - Information on Cowboy PSLs or Seat Options at Cowboys Stadium

 

[flasox27]

8 team league and fewer people in the Garden than were watching the loser Bruins until his death.

And your comparison of the Cowboys $325 million in public funding stadium is HIGH-larious.

When does popularity have anything to do with the greatness of the owner. A heck of a lot more people watch the Sox in a season and that doesn't make John Henry a great owner. The question concerning the stadium was "Bringing a great stadium for the fans", there was no mention of financing. I do not question that Kraft is an astute businessman who thought rightfully he could make a profit on a stadium and its ancillary shopping using money obtained through the NFL. While other stadia that are built with public funds require rental from the teams to retire the bonds, Kraft can use the funds to repay his debt. I doubt that Kraft will be turning over the stadium to the town of Foxboro. As for PSL's I am aware of what they are, I am sure Kraft as a smart business man considered them but decided against it since his stadium did not cost as much as the much larger and more expensive Cowboy's stadium.

 

[shmessy]

....and btw, I know more about the Celtics of the 50's and 60's than you will ever learn.

My dad traveled with the team as a young sportswriter (before he got a real job) and my parents babysat a rookie named John Havlicek for a weekend resort trip to the old Magnolia Manor in the early 60's. I can list chapter and verse about Russ throwing up before every big game, or how he'd talk to Howie McHugh about strategically keeping his girlfriends in sections far away from each other at the Garden. About how Satch was so nervous meeting JFK at the White House that he blurted out "Babe" to him when addressing the President and how Loscy would run Revere Beach for hours after his back doctor told him running in sand would be the best medicine for his surgery. Then there were the fights Red would get into in Syracuse with Dolph Schayes or Rochester or Cincy.

There are some very cool paraphernalia (i.e. the commemorative glasses the team gave out to the players and media at the annual breakup dinners back then) along with personal stuff Red gave my dad.

I got to meet Red in the 70's at the Longwood US Pro Tennis Championships when my dad called me up to the preess box and introduced me to him. I was petrified (mainly because I was a kid and should not have been in the press box). Red was fantastic with me, though and talked to me throughout the match. Gruff but kind to me.

In the meantime, Bob Branum was my PE "professor" at Brandeis and I have read just about every book written by the great old Celtics, from Heinsohn to Russ to Red.

My dad has thousands of stories about the Great Walter Brown. No one is denying that he was a GREAT owner and truly unique human being (ESPECIALLY for Boston during that era).

However as an owner overall, I have to put Kraft above him.

Sorry.

 

[shmessy]

When does popularity have anything to do with the greatness of the owner. A heck of a lot more people watch the Sox in a season and that doesn't make John Henry a great owner. .

FAIL.

Have someone teach you that the Bruins and Celtics played (and still do) in the SAME indoor arena.

So when the comparison is made between the two, where one (a perennial loser at the time) was significantly outdrawing the other, then that is notable.

And there are far more empty seats in Fenway each and every year over the past 21 years than there have been at Gillette.

 

[1960Pats]

Please.

Goodell took away the draft picks and fined $1 million from BRADY???????

Pretty please.

I'm talking about Brady being labeled as a cheater and having to go to a court to try and clear his name, AFTER Kraft rolled over.

The money is meaningless to me, and apparently Kraft.

 

[shmessy]

Pretty please?

I'm talking about Brady being labeled as a cheater and having to go to a court to try and clear his name, AFTER Kraft rolled over.

The money is meaningless to me, and apparently Kraft.

....you're conveniently leaving out the 1st and 4th round picks there........

 

[flasox27]

We are going around in circles. I just want to establish in my criteria that the greatness of owner has to do with the team he puts on the court or field is reflected by its record not its popularity. I grew up in Dorchester,and played hockey. I know hockey is a more popular sport in Boston so the fact that the crappy Bruins before Orr out drew the Celts does not mean anything. As for the comparison between the Sox and Pats, the Pats were admittedly the better team for most of the time frame even though the Sox were the more popular. I am sure you will establish some criteria that proves Kraft was the best owner and aside from Brown I would have completely agreed with you until 2007. I believe Kraft is a good man who has been duped by Goodell and his backstabbing fellow owners. I am very sorry but he is no longer good for the team and its fans. I don't doubt your sincerity but I am just a Pats fan who wants the best for its team and its fans .

 

[shmessy]

We are going around in circles. I just want to establish in my criteria that the greatness of owner has to do with the team he puts on the court or field is reflected by its record not its popularity. I grew up in Dorchester,and played hockey. I know hockey is a more popular sport in Boston so the fact that the crappy Bruins before Orr out drew the Celts does not mean anything. As for the comparison between the Sox and Pats, the Pats were admittedly the better team for most of the time frame even though the Sox were the more popular. I am sure you will establish some criteria that proves Kraft was the best owner and aside from Brown I would have completely agreed with you until 2007. I believe Kraft is a good man who has been duped by Goodell and his backstabbing fellow owners. I am very sorry but he is no longer good for the team and its fans. I don't doubt your sincerity but I am just a Pats fan who wants the best for its team and its fans .

That is a very sensible take. I disagree with your point that he is no longer good for the team, but that is a far different tone than the purple prose that has been on this website from certain kneejerk quarters.