Congratulations Robert Kraft for helping lead this franchise to historic success

[flasox27]

....and btw, I know more about the Celtics of the 50's and 60's than you will ever learn.

My dad traveled with the team as a young sportswriter (before he got a real job) and my parents babysat a rookie named John Havlicek for a weekend resort trip to the old Magnolia Manor in the early 60's. I can list chapter and verse about Russ throwing up before every big game, or how he'd talk to Howie McHugh about strategically keeping his girlfriends in sections far away from each other at the Garden. About how Satch was so nervous meeting JFK at the White House that he blurted out "Babe" to him when addressing the President and how Loscy would run Revere Beach for hours after his back doctor told him running in sand would be the best medicine for his surgery. Then there were the fights Red would get into in Syracuse with Dolph Schayes or Rochester or Cincy.

There are some very cool paraphernalia (i.e. the commemorative glasses the team gave out to the players and media at the annual breakup dinners back then) along with personal stuff Red gave my dad.

I got to meet Red in the 70's at the Longwood US Pro Tennis Championships when my dad called me up to the preess box and introduced me to him. I was petrified (mainly because I was a kid and should not have been in the press box). Red was fantastic with me, though and talked to me throughout the match. Gruff but kind to me.

In the meantime, Bob Branum was my PE "professor" at Brandeis and I have read just about every book written by the great old Celtics, from Heinsohn to Russ to Red.

My dad has thousands of stories about the Great Walter Brown. No one is denying that he was a GREAT owner and truly unique human being (ESPECIALLY for Boston during that era).

However as an owner overall, I have to put Kraft above him.

Sorry.

I can only say I followed the Celtics as a fan since I was alive in the 50's and 60's, so my understanding is as a fan's view. We will just have to disagree. Let me just say that my opinion about Kraft as a human being has changed greatly in a positive manner. I no longer question his motives or sincerity only the effect of his actions.

 

[shmessy]

I can only say I followed the Celtics as a fan since I was alive in the 50's and 60's, so my understanding is as a fan's view. We will just have to disagree.

Then as my dad would attest, you were one of "the few, the proud"........

I caught the end in the late 60's/early 70's and my first memory is a doubleheader the Celtics played in the second game where the Globies were the real attraction in the first. The most powerful man (business-wise) in the 50's and 60's basketball world was Abe Saperstein.

Walter Brown was a true hero for keeping the team and league alive while debt collectors were breathing down his neck at all times.

In the meantime, someday, Soccer will be very big in this country, and today's Revolution fans will have lots of good stories to reminisce about.

 

[RayClay]

No it isn't. It's like witnessing one of your friends being mugged and not taking any action at all.

So, one of Kraft's "friends" had to pay a million bucks?

The patriots aren't Kraft's friends, though they wouldn't exist now without him. They are part of the NFL and he owns a team that is part of the NFL.

Maybe you don't like it, but it is what it is.

It is probably before your time but the best owner in the history of Boston sports was Walter Brown who brought in the greatest coach/general manager in the history of Boston sports, Red Auerbach and created the greatest dynasty in the history of Boston sports. Unlike you I do not think creating a great stadium is a requisite for a great owner otherwise you would have to include a person like the owner of the Cowboys undeservedly into the group

Not before my time as I had followed the Celtics since 61, same as the Patriots. Why do I have to downgrade Brown. I'm not. I'm fighting against the idiocy that says because goodell turned out to be a lunatic in a position of absolute power over an individual, that means Kraft wasn't and isn't a good owmner.

Kraft had to fight and give up draft picks to get Belichick, while the NBA was hardly even a professional league in the early 50s. In terms of investment, Brown was more akin to Billy Sullivan than Kraft. I bet it was easier to get an NBA franchise in those days than an AFL one in 1960.

Auerbach was a great signing, but hardly a risk like the belichick signing was.

Is getting a stadium built in a place like greater boston a huge? Yes it is. You should know that given the other things you mentioned. I can't imagine the NFL would allow a team with a toilet like schaefer stadium as it's home, or whatever you want to call it.

I give Billy Sullivan a lot of credit for keeping a team going with no orginal support or much money and helping get the toilet built that kept the league from closing us down.

Each owner had a different situation and I fault Kraft only for empowering Bobby Grier, though Belichick was a great recovery. Kraft had a lot more money, but neither of the other owners would have a chance today money wise, so I don't hold them to the same standard.

 

[1960Pats]

....you're conveniently leaving out the 1st and 4th round picks there........

What do you mean conveniently left out? Are you accusing me of being disingenuous?

If you want to talk about the picks they lost that's worthy of discussion too, but my original response was about Kraft's capitulation as it related to Brady and the fans.

 

[shmessy]

What do you mean conveniently left out? Are you accusing me of being disingenuous?

If you want to talk about the picks they lost that's worthy of discussion too, but my original response was about Kraft's capitulation as it related to Brady and the fans.

Calm down,, I'm not accusing you of being disingenuous. But you are leaving out the BIGGEST penalties in the situation.

Your response post only mentioned the $1 million from Kraft's pocket - - THAT is what I was calling you on. You can see it in black and white further up the thread if you want.


The 1st and 4th picks are the REAL long-term effect penalties affecting the franchise.

 

[flasox27]

Then as my dad would attest, you were one of "the few, the proud"........

I caught the end in the late 60's/early 70's and my first memory is a doubleheader the Celtics played in the second game where the Globies were the real attraction in the first. The most powerful man (business-wise) in the 50's and 60's basketball world was Abe Saperstein.

Walter Brown was a true hero for keeping the team and league alive while debt collectors were breathing down his neck at all times.

In the meantime, someday, Soccer will be very big in this country, and today's Revolution fans will have lots of good stories to reminisce about.

Yes I remember NBA doubleheaders in the Garden. I also remember when there was the Syracuse Nationals, the Philadelphia Warriors, the St Louis Hawks, the Cincinnati Royals and the Minneapolis Lakers. the Celts, Knicks and Pistons gratefully have stayed the same. I disagree about soccer however . I remember when Soccer was first brought into Boston by importing an Irish team. It was a boutique sport in the US then and has remained the same in my opinion. Americans like sports in which Americans are the best in the world and they will never be in men's soccer since the best athletes going into other sports. Women's soccer is different in that the best women's athletes play it.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

the Celts, Knicks and Pistons gratefully have stayed the same.

Pistons were originally the Fort Wayne Zollner Pistons, then the Fort Wayne Pistons, and finally the Detroit Pistons (moved to Detroit for the '57-'58 season).

 

[AzPatsFan]

.....and yes, 1960. Us having to 'bravely endure' the taunts in the playground from other teams' jealous fans while the Patriots build upon their 15 year dynasty IS a First World NFL problem.

Cleveland, Oakland, Washington, Miami, Atlanta..........etc. don't have to suffer the 'grave consequences' you and I must shoulder through. You know damn well, would all gladly give their left left nuts forever in a fraction of a second in order to hear the crap we hear.

So, please name one (just ONE) other owner in the NFL you would prefer to Bob Kraft.

This should be good.

They can't, unless they name themselves and dwelling in their mom's basement without a sou, doesn't qualify them except in their fevered imaginations... Don Quixote as more qualified.

 

[RayClay]

Not if the cop is literally employed by me. And not in the public servant/taxpayer way.

What do you mean, not in the public servant/taxpayer way? The cop is literally employed by you.

 

[RayClay]

That's much too nice of a way for Fraudger to go. I have a much better method I like but I think it scared the posters here the last time I shared it.

All kidding aside RC, doesn't it bother you, maybe a little, the way Kraft gave in?

I have said many times he made a fool of himself turning around and having that picture taken and that speech. Nobody reads that, because i don't demonize him.

The reason is you only have to read all his statements to see he fully expected to get exonerated and expected an apology from the league, lost faith in the league.

Besides making a fool of himself, i don't think he did anything wrong. He isn't a founder of the league. He has always been one of 32. I seriously don't think that, having been selected as the most influential owner in all of pro sports in 2014, he was thinking "it's been 7 years, the league is undoubtedly going to screw us over for no reason this year." I'm sure Patsfans might think that, but a lot of things in the world have happened since 2007.

Kraft and the team are victims of this, not the cause of it.

I think Kraft was furious after the original charge, more pissed after the wells report, and livid after the punishments and he assembled his son, his lawyers and top advisors and asked them to go over everything they could do to change it.

and they said nothing. that's what i think. Let Brady and the union fight, they have legal standing, you and othe owners have none, you just get to plead to the ******* who just gave you the ridiculous punishment, better get out of the way and work behind the scenes where you can do something [my intepretation, being that only a vote of the owners can get rid of bozo].

So, he made a spectacle of himself trying to pretend he hadn't said everything he said about the league in three different statements.

I believe it's who wins in the end that matters, not whether you made a fool of yourself because you got caught off guard. Kraft's got a more than adequate record of getting what he wants no matter how long it takes. I, personally, believe in him.

 

[RayClay]

That's much too nice of a way for Fraudger to go. I have a much better method I like but I think it scared the posters here the last time I shared it.

All kidding aside RC, doesn't it bother you, maybe a little, the way Kraft gave in?

Also, he didn't give in, in my opinion. giving goodell the opportunity to fart in his face in a hopeless appeal wouldn't be winning anything, in my opinion. Brady won his appeal in overwhelming fashion. i don't know if having that follow a loss in arbitration by Kraft would have hurt it, but i doubt it would have helped.

To think Kraft would have won with goodell as arbitrator seems silly to me. Brady lost completely, if you recall, and he had the threat of a union appeal and goodell stillhad to lie multiple times in Brady's arbitration.

sometimes you're just screwed and need to go to plan B and C and i think that was the case here.

 

[flasox27]

Pistons were originally the Fort Wayne Zollner Pistons, then the Fort Wayne Pistons, and finally the Detroit Pistons (moved to Detroit for the '57-'58 season).

I am trying to recall from my own memory of sports which started in 1957. Before then as you point out the Pistons were from Fort Wayne and the Royals were from Rochester.

 

[shmessy]

I am trying to recall from my own memory of sports which started in 1957. Before then as you point out the Pistons were from Fort Wayne and the Royals were from Rochester.

And they were the Zollner Pistons - - their owner literally puts his own name on the team.

 

[flasox27]

Also, he didn't give in, in my opinion. giving goodell the opportunity to fart in his face in a hopeless appeal wouldn't be winning anything, in my opinion. Brady won his appeal in overwhelming fashion. i don't know if having that follow a loss in arbitration by Kraft would have hurt it, but i doubt it would have helped.

To think Kraft would have won with goodell as arbitrator seems silly to me. Brady lost completely, if you recall, and he had the threat of a union appeal and goodell stillhad to lie multiple times in Brady's arbitration.

sometimes you're just screwed and need to go to plan B and C and i think that was the case here.

I respect that you are the foremost defender of Kraft on this board and you have made many valid points about the positive attributes about his ownership. However excusing his actions related to the 180 degree turnaround from requesting an apology from the League to his pathetic concession speech about being concerned the other 31 owners and their fans is excessive. I differ with you in that sometimes you have to stand up to the bully to earn respect even if you know you will lose the fight. Capitulation never wins respect from either your supposed allies or your real enemies even when you don't recognize them. It is obvious that the capitulation did not help Brady's case since it was cited by the NFL against him in the court documents.

 

[shmessy]

BTW, look at all those empty yellow seats in Pittsburgh today!

Why aren't those fans supporting the Rooneys?

 

[RayClay]

I respect that you are the foremost defender of Kraft on this board and you have made many valid points about the positive attributes about his ownership. However excusing his actions related to the 180 degree turnaround from requesting an apology from the League to his pathetic concession speech about being concerned the other 31 owners and their fans is excessive. I differ with you in that sometimes you have to stand up to the bully to earn respect even if you know you will lose the fight. Capitulation never wins respect from either your supposed allies or your real enemies even when you don't recognize them. It is obvious that the capitulation did not help Brady's case since it was cited by the NFL against him in the court documents.

I agree with his actions. I'm just sorry that he had to make a fool out of himself once he realized he had no power to do anything, but a lot of power to do things behind the scenes.

His own son Jonathan, who ironically is praised by the same people demonizing Robert, said an owner fighting this would be "futile."

Brady won everything he possibly could in challenging his arbitration result. I have no idea how that proves Kraft staying out of it "hurt" him.

People here are butthurt that a criminal like goodell is in charge of a league that gives it's commissioner absolute power over it's franchises and pretty much did before goodell too.

If making the victim, since every punishment hurt his franchise and he stands to lose the most, the scapegoat makes people feel better, fine. i just think it's stupid and, fortunately, the franchise is still the best in football.

 

[shmessy]

People here are butthurt that a criminal like goodell is in charge of a league that gives it's commissioner absolute power over it's franchises and pretty much did before goodell too.

Actually, I believe Mike Petraglia this week was 100% correct in stating the exact opposite.

Goodell is a total puppet of the owners who are intent on "getting" the Pats and have told him his ass is grass if he doesn't make Framegate his #1 priority.

 

[RayClay]

Actually, I believe Mike Petraglia this week was 100% correct in stating the exact opposite.

Goodell is a total puppet of the owners who are intent on "getting" the Pats and have told him his ass is grass if he doesn't make Framegate his #1 priority.

that might be goodells personal interpretation as a Jets fan. According to the league constitution, which is what Kraft needs to go by if he's going to take action, each individual franchise must abide by any discipline of the commissioner. If he decides to change it, it's because he decides to, no owner has the power to affect discipline he doesn't like.

There are a lot more owners than crackhead bob in Indy, and Woody the dumb guy in the family in NY. You need at least 20, and probably 24, if I'm correct. I only ever hear from a handful of owners.

If we keep winning and goodell keeps pissing away legal funds and good will and PR, things will gradually change.

Besides, Irsays only about even money to even make it into another year.

 

[RayClay]

I agree with his actions. I'm just sorry that he had to make a fool out of himself once he realized he had no power to do anything, but a lot of power to do things behind the scenes.

His own son Jonathan, who ironically is praised by the same people demonizing Robert, said an owner fighting this would be "futile."

Brady won everything he possibly could in challenging his arbitration result. I have no idea how that proves Kraft staying out of it "hurt" him.

People here are butthurt that a criminal like goodell is in charge of a league that gives it's commissioner absolute power over it's franchises and pretty much did before goodell too.

If making the victim, since every punishment hurt his franchise and he stands to lose the most, the scapegoat makes people feel better, fine. i just think it's stupid and, fortunately, the franchise is still the best in football.

I find it hard to believe if this comes to a war for power people are going to line up behind Irsay.

 

[flasox27]

I agree with his actions. I'm just sorry that he had to make a fool out of himself once he realized he had no power to do anything, but a lot of power to do things behind the scenes.

His own son Jonathan, who ironically is praised by the same people demonizing Robert, said an owner fighting this would be "futile."

Brady won everything he possibly could in challenging his arbitration result. I have no idea how that proves Kraft staying out of it "hurt" him.

People here are butthurt that a criminal like goodell is in charge of a league that gives it's commissioner absolute power over it's franchises and pretty much did before goodell too.

If making the victim, since every punishment hurt his franchise and he stands to lose the most, the scapegoat makes people feel better, fine. i just think it's stupid and, fortunately, the franchise is still the best in football.

Let me disagree with a couple of your points. Kraft has put the POS commissioner ahead of his team and his fans continuously since 2007 until now. The reasons he has chosen to do this I do not understand or question. However he can not be held blameless when he was in large part responsible for the continued existence of the real enemy of his team especially when the POS was most vulnerable. Secondly, I think you have an unrealistic belief that Kraft has any influence on on field matters since no other team has been punished more for nothing than the Pats while supposed no influence owners like Woody Johnson get wrist slaps. This is not to say that Kraft doesn't have any influence on financial matters since he is a great businessman but it does not carry over in the least. Finally, It is obvious that Brady won his case on its own merits despite the capitulation of Kraft which was used legally and in public opinion against him.
Despite everything, I believe like you the Pats are the best franchise in football for now.