Congratulations Robert Kraft for helping lead this franchise to historic success

[1960Pats]

I get the Parcells hate. The way he left etc, but come on. Big hand in drafting the foundation of players that would help win 3 championships, Belichick would never be here if they didn't hire Parcells etc. Put up with the **** to fertilize the pasture. He definitely isn't the worst thing that happened to this franchise.

How does Parcells get credit for the players who were drafted while he was here and complaining about not having the final say in the draft

 

[DarrylS]

I prefer to judge a man by the body of his work not one incident.. in this case I disagree with what Mr. Kraft did, but choose not to name call him as I still respect him as an owner and as a person.

He bought a really crappy franchise that was going nowhere, remember the days of the perennial blackouts?? Now the NE Pats are top 5 franchise of all sports teams.. great facility and learned his lesson that owners own, personnel staff and coaches develop the team and players play.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

I prefer to judge a man by the body of his work not one incident.. in this case I disagree with what Mr. Kraft did, but choose not to name call him as I still respect him as an owner and as a person.

He bought a really crappy franchise that was going nowhere, remember the days of the perennial blackouts?? Now the NE Pats are top 5 franchise of all sports teams..

No. Didn't you get the memo. We're No.1

 

[DarrylS]

No. Didn't you get the memo. We're No.1

Was referring to overall financial value as well.. without regard we are one of the best sports franchise in several categories..

 

[shmessy]

How does Parcells get credit for the players who were drafted while he was here and complaining about not having the final say in the draft

My kids don't pay for the groceries and complain about what's in the fridge all the time.

 

[1960Pats]

My kids don't pay for the groceries and complain about what's in the fridge all the time.

But they don't take credit when the fridge is full of great groceries. They just devour them..

 

[Patriot Missile]

How does Parcells get credit for the players who were drafted while he was here and complaining about not having the final say in the draft

I don't know the facts of that situation. He may of been prima donna butt hurt when Kraft went Jerry Jones in 96 for Terry Glenn. For all we know the groceries was referring to just that one selection? I just don't think his ego takes it too well when he doesn't get his way.

I believe Kraft learned a valuable lesson from Parcells and that was let the football people do their thing. However there is no reason to put up with their bs either and I'm glad Kraft didnt back down from the big tuna.

 

[flasox27]

Let me just say that there is enough credit to go around and Kraft deserves his share for hiring BB when he became available under whatever circumstances and letting him run the team essentially without interference until 2007. My position is well established that since then due to his toxic relationship with Goodell, he has been a detriment to the success of this team. Not standing up for BB in 2007 and letting the POS commissioner destroy the reputation of Patriots was a disaster, standing up for the POS in the Rice fiasco was a disaster, and his actions in the latest sham violation was a disaster. Do these actions disqualify all the positives of his ownership, I say NO but given his continuing blindspot concerning Goodell and the collection of backstabbing fellow owners, I think it is best for him to turn over control of the team to his son before the next disaster happens to the team and its fans.

 

[RayClay]

How does Parcells get credit for the players who were drafted while he was here and complaining about not having the final say in the draft

Because he did have the final say under Orthwein. I can provide an article if google is kind, or maybe I posted it before.

 

[RayClay]

How does Parcells get credit for the players who were drafted while he was here and complaining about not having the final say in the draft

Here's a 1993 article stating "he's the man" with a personnel department to assist him. There are more articles I've seen that say it in other ways.

http://articles.courant.com/1993-01..._1_james-b-orthwein-patriots-giants-situation

 

[RayClay]

I don't know the facts of that situation. He may of been prima donna butt hurt when Kraft went Jerry Jones in 96 for Terry Glenn. For all we know the groceries was referring to just that one selection? I just don't think his ego takes it too well when he doesn't get his way.

I believe Kraft learned a valuable lesson from Parcells and that was let the football people do their thing. However there is no reason to put up with their bs either and I'm glad Kraft didnt back down from the big tuna.

Parcells still picked the lower picks, because they weren't glamorous. Kraft didn't like him, which was his right, but he moved an incompetent over him, then forced a WR on him at #7 in a year when there were all pro receivers down to the 5th round, I believe. Wiki even had a page calling it the year of the receiver.

Parcells could have traded it, beefed up the defense, then still drafted

Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens [3rd], Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, Jermaine Lewis [5th], or Joe Horn [5th]

 

[RayClay]

i believe that we were lucky to have:

1- Billy Sullivan (without him no Patriots) and he deserve to be in the Pats Hall Of Fame
2 - Robert Kraft (a real fan who then became the owner, what a great story) - without him probably the team would have been mooved...and so no Patriots without him in NE...

so thanks to both - i will always be grateful to them

Absolutely, Italian Pat. It's perspective. Nobody thought a football team could make it in 1959 and Philadelphia had a press conference to announce they had the last AFL franchise.

Annihulus at Pats Planet has the article where Sullivan spent the weekend on the phone and stole the franchise.

He never had money and had to ask his wife! [can you imagine] to forget about the Cape Cod cottage, he needed the money for his share of the Patriots!

He would have been smart to sell when they were doibg well, but he really loved the team and didn't want to let go, so the end was a mess.

Robert Kraft was a true fan who had season tickets for some bad teams. He made bad business decisions, because he wanted the team badly.

He bought a broken down race track nobody wanted, then bought the horrible stadium out of bankruptcy, just for a chance to force Orthwein, who wanted only to buy out the lease on the horrible stadium, to listen to his offer.

Ten years! since he bought the crap race track, because the land was on the stadium property.

Orthwein was not paying the whole lease for a crappy Foxboro stadium, while he moved to St. Louis, so Kraft had him and said, I'm buying you out.

Then, because Boston, or Mass. would never build a decent stadium, he made a terrible business decision, but he made it from the heart. He got some road money and built a world class stadium for the team he loved.

Terribly risky business, but he made it from the heart and he wound up a winner!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Orthwein was not paying the whole lease for a crappy Foxboro stadium, while he moved to St. Louis

I'm pretty sure Orthwein didn't have that option.

I'm near positive the lease required the team to play at the stadium. So even if Orthwein had been willing to move the team to St. Louis and pay rent on an empty stadium, he wouldn't be able to. The lease itself is what blocked the team from moving, not Orthwein's unwillingness to throw rent money away.

 

[RayClay]

I'm pretty sure Orthwein didn't have that option.

I'm near positive the lease required the team to play at the stadium. So even if Orthwein had been willing to move the team to St. Louis and pay rent on an empty stadium, he wouldn't be able to. The lease itself is what blocked the team from moving, not Orthwein's unwillingness to throw rent money away.

I don't know about that, but either way, it was Kraft's refusal to let him buy it out and insistence on buying it instead that forced Orthwein to sell to him.

Not exactly sure what you're saying, but Kraft owned the stadium and lease. he could have let him off at any terms he wanted.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

All I was saying is that I read your post to say that if Orthwein had wanted to he could have gone ahead and moved the team to St. Louis over Kraft's objections so long as he paid Kraft the rent due. I believe that in addition to the rent, the lease actually required the team to play in Foxboro Stadium so that even if Orthwein wanted to move and pay he could not move the team w/o Kraft's permission.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I don't know the facts of that situation. He may of been prima donna butt hurt when Kraft went Jerry Jones in 96 for Terry Glenn. For all we know the groceries was referring to just that one selection? I just don't think his ego takes it too well when he doesn't get his way.

I believe Kraft learned a valuable lesson from Parcells and that was let the football people do their thing. However there is no reason to put up with their bs either and I'm glad Kraft didn't back down from the big tuna.

I think you got it right and Kraft largely confirmed this when he hired BB. He commented at some point that his own job was to get the right football person in the right place, let him do the job, hold him accountable for the results, while also tending to the good health of the business side.

I seem to recall that prior to the BP-Grier-Carroll 'stuff', Kraft was on a slight Jerry Jones track of wanting to be involved with football operations (does Jerry still like to make football decisions?) Fortunately when BB came along Kraft also seemed to better learn that his own job was not out holding the proverbial stopwatch at a player tryout -- it was the business side. Ultimately this lead to the right formula: Kraft hiring BB then tending to the business operations side(and him being a long time Patriot Fan was a help too imho) + BB being in full control of the football operations side including drafting the right QB + TB being TB = success.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

All I was saying is that I read your post to say that if Orthwein wanted to he could have gone ahead and moved the team to St. Louis over Kraft's objections so long as he paid Kraft the rent due. I believe that in addition to the rent, the least actually required the team to play in Foxboro Stadium so that even if Orthwein wanted to move and pay he could not move the team w/o Kraft's permission.

I don't know the specifics of the lease, however, I think these type long term leases are worded to make playing elsewhere, until the lease is up, just not legally and/or financially feasible. The actual contract may not forbid a move but in practice that is what it says.

Due to franchise movement to 'greener' pastures, the municipalities, counties, sports authorities and private corporations understand these stadium contracts have to make any move by the main pro franchise tenant just not financially attractive until the lease is up. That tenant remaining for 15 or 20 years is what will pay off the loan to build/buy the stadium. And while I do think a few deals are done by desperate entities that want to land a pro team tenant that allow the team an easier out, I suspect it is now rare if even existing.
Stadiums ain't cheap, not even buying the arguably worst pro football stadium of its time in Foxboro. To make a huge investment like that almost requires an all but ironclad guarantee of the pro team remaining there over a large portion of the stadium loan repayment plan. To do otherwise is one serious risk of a very serious amount of money (and in the first place probably very concerning for any financial institution to finance the deal).

 

[AzPatsFan]

I wasn't saying Jacobs was a great owner.
I was saying Jacobs is another example of 'let your gm/president do their job and be hands off'.
And there's many such owners -- being hands off is Kraft's best trait, but that trait doesn't make someone a great owner.
The only difference with Kraft is Kraft was lucky enough to hire Parcells, then Belichick -- most owners aren't lucky enough to hire the best coach in the sports history, and around the 10th best coach in the sports history.
If he actually defended his coach and qb, then Kraft would truly be a great owner with the other qualities.
A different turn of events, and the Pats would be a mediocre team or in Hartford -- and the same Kraft would be decried as a terrible owner.

Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

Kraft has proved himself a good owner and fan before he hired BB.

Kraft has never employed a head coach who has not won a Superbowl or more. He inherited Parcells true; but kept him on even though many new owners want to hire their own man. Then he chose Petey even though he was failed and fired Head Coach; and split responsibilities until he saw that was not working.

Then he hired Belichick even though it cost him a draft pick. It was a lot to pay for a failed Head Coach in Cleveland. Now all are proven to be Super Bowl winning Head Coaches.

So Kraft has done more than just hiring Bill Belichick.

 

[RayClay]

All I was saying is that I read your post to say that if Orthwein wanted to he could have gone ahead and moved the team to St. Louis over Kraft's objections so long as he paid Kraft the rent due. I believe that in addition to the rent, the least actually required the team to play in Foxboro Stadium so that even if Orthwein wanted to move and pay he could not move the team w/o Kraft's permission.

Doesn't sound like something someone could enforce, but what do i know? Either way, Kraft used the lease to force Orthwein to sell only to him. Paying full price for a lease you wouldn't use could make a move unprofitable, I imagine.

 

[RayClay]

I'm pretty sure Orthwein didn't have that option.

I'm near positive the lease required the team to play at the stadium. So even if Orthwein had been willing to move the team to St. Louis and pay rent on an empty stadium, he wouldn't be able to. The lease itself is what blocked the team from moving, not Orthwein's unwillingness to throw rent money away.

Yeah, here's a NY Times article that says that and also that a 20 million fee from the league would go into effect. Also implies that they could break the lease but it would cost a lot in legal fees. More force to the Kraft put them over a barrel argument, thanks for the info.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/22/sports/sold-time-to-call-them-the-new-england-permanents.html