Congratulations Robert Kraft for helping lead this franchise to historic success

[shmessy]

I get the Parcells hate. The way he left etc, but come on. Big hand in drafting the foundation of players that would help win 3 championships, Belichick would never be here if they didn't hire Parcells etc. Put up with the **** to fertilize the pasture. He definitely isn't the worst thing that happened to this franchise.

Chuck Fairbanks wasn't either.

But neither were the long-term saviors that the Boston Globe wants you to believe Parcells was.

Only ONE element was the same for the past 7 Super Bowl appearances for the New England Patriots. Kraft is very fortunate to have Belichick and Brady as his HC/QB.

But at the same time, would Belichick/Brady have gotten the same opportunity/ongoing support with any other owner? The world was not busting down the doors for either of them in the winter of 2000.

.

 

[Patriot Missile]

True. I don't think there is an owner that would set his ego aside and let his head coach sit the player he agreed to give a 100 million bucks. It was big news back then because players normally didn't lose their starting job to injuries. Especially franchise QBs.

Nowadays some owners tell their coaches who they are going to start. Can't be sure, but I would say Cassell starting this week is a Jerry Jones decision and not a Garrett decision. Couldn't imagine Belichick working for a guy like that.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

PATRIOTS NOW HAVE THE HIGHEST WINNING PERCENTAGE IN MAJOR SPORTS SINCE 1994
With the win over Dallas, the Patriots now have the highest regular-season winning percentage in major American professional sports since 1994 when Robert Kraft purchased the team.

You let the fans down during Deflate Gate, but there's no questioning the success that you've brought to this team. Thank you for your work Mr. Kraft, and I hope you can still restore your credibility with us.

I agree with the sentiments you express as well as with how you express them.

All I would add is that, ultimately, any person, but especially someone in the public spotlight, is judged by the entire body of his or her work. Kraft has been extremely successful and chosen to work into his 70's, so he alone will write the final chapter to his story.

He made a very, very bad decision in San Francisco. He's acknowledged that and apologized for it.

Did that mistake reveal a fundamental flaw in his character, which should color how we judge the entire scope of his career?

Or was it a "mistake," made in the heat of the moment by a man under a lot of pressure? I know I've made plenty of the latter, so I'm going to wait and see how the final chapter of Robert Kraft's life is written, just as I hope that those who know me will judge me by the entirety of my own life.

 

[BobDigital]

Do I think Robert Kraft should have kept fighting? Yes (particularly in retrospect).
Was I mad when he gave up? Yes.

However a lot of people here give him very little benefit of a doubt for the "why". I think his first concerns were protecting the NFL and trying to put all this behind the franchise. I am sure he was told lies about what dirt they had and made promises about just going along.

Keep in mind he was told all these things from what he thought was a trusted friend.

Going by his past history his first priority appeared to be do what is best for my franchise and legacy. I don't think appeasing other owners was his primary consideration.

I think he made the wrong choice but i understand why he made it and then why he regretted it. Telling New England sports fans to forgive is tough. We don't tend to be the forgiving kind.

But i would point out looking at other NFL owners we could do much worse than Kraft. He actually cares about this team on a personal level and doesn't actively tinker with it and mess it up. I would still take him over nearly any other owner.

 

[ReverendMaynard]

I agree with the sentiments you express as well as with how you express them.

All I would add is that, ultimately, any person, but especially someone in the public spotlight, is judged by the entire body of his or her work. Kraft has been extremely successful and chosen to work into his 70's, so he alone will write the final chapter to his story.

He made a very, very bad decision in San Francisco. He's acknowledged that and apologized for it.

Did that mistake reveal a fundamental flaw in his character, which should color how we judge the entire scope of his career?

Or was it a "mistake," made in the heat of the moment by a man under a lot of pressure? I know I've made plenty of the latter, so I'm going to wait and see how the final chapter of Robert Kraft's life is written, just as I hope that those who know me will judge me by the entirety of my own life.

Mistakes can be forgiven, if one demonstrates that they recognize their mistake and have taken steps to be sure they don't happen again. Empty platitudes are meaningless.

Kraft continues to compound his mistake by supporting Goodell, and so he gets no forgiveness. If Goodell finishes out his current contract, Kraft will never be forgiven by me.

The mistakes he's made with Fraudger the Ommissioner well overshadow any good he has ever done, in my mind.

I'd rather be a fan of the St Louis Patriots than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated.

I'd rather be a fan of a team with a rebel owner like Al Davis than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated, with a lickspittle owner always bending over trying to curry favor with those who despise him.

I'd rather be a fan of a team with the success of the Lions or Browns than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Mistakes can be forgiven, if one demonstrates that they recognize their mistake and have taken steps to be sure they don't happen again. Empty platitudes are meaningless.

Kraft continues to compound his mistake by supporting Goodell, and so he gets no forgiveness. If Goodell finishes out his current contract, Kraft will never be forgiven by me.

The mistakes he's made with Fraudger the Ommissioner well overshadow any good he has ever done, in my mind.

I'd rather be a fan of the St Louis Patriots than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated.

I'd rather be a fan of a team with a rebel owner like Al Davis than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated, with a lickspittle owner always bending over trying to curry favor with those who despise him.

I'd rather be a fan of a team with the success of the Lions or Browns than a fan of the cheatingest cheaters that ever cheated.

ReverendM: I'm glad I'm not a member of your church, as I would no doubt be condemned to hell with no hope of forgiveness.

 

[ReverendMaynard]

ReverendM: I'm glad I'm not a member of your church, as I would no doubt be condemned to hell with no hope of forgiveness.

Setting aside the fact that any priest would tell you that it's God who must forgive you, not any man, priest or no, I'm not a priest or anything like that, so no worries there. However...

What I do know about religion and concepts of forgiveness is that you cannot be forgiven for an ongoing activity. How can you truly be remorseful for something you plan to continue doing as soon as you leave the confessional?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Setting aside the fact that any priest would tell you that it's God who must forgive you, not any man, priest or no, I'm not a priest or anything like that, so no worries there. However...

What I do know about religion and concepts of forgiveness is that you cannot be forgiven for an ongoing activity. How can you truly be remorseful for something you plan to continue doing as soon as you leave the confessional?

I could dust off my old moral philosophy and theology text books that I got from the Jesuits (if I could find them!), but I do recall that even orthodox (small "o") Catholic teaching acknowledges that remorse and intent are complex realities, between an individual's conscience and his/her God. Or, as Pope Francis put it in another context, "Who am I to judge?" Beyond that, we are going way OT and probably should take any further discussion along these lines to another Forum or Offline.

Back On Topic, as my OP suggested, I'm waiting to see how this plays out in Kraft's behavior over the next several months and years. The final chapter is not written and I am willing to wait before passing my own human judgment on the man.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

What???

The question of Connecticut came up several years after Kraft bought the team. Orthwein was long gone by 1998 when Governor Rowland and the CT legislature made the offer to Kraft.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Kraft came very close to accepting the Billion+ and moving to CT in 1998. Any sane, non-emotional capitalist would have done it.

He actually did accept it -- signed the papers and everything. However, the agreement had some outs related to construction times and/or hazmat issues (can't remember exactly) and he used that to back out of the deal later.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

See:

Kraft accepted the offer to move the team 100 miles southwest of the area they had called home for over a quarter of a century.


The sketch of the Patriots' stadium in Hartford.

A press conference was held, a handshake deal completed. So what went wrong?

Did the NFL really want to lose the Boston area market? At the time, the Boston area was the sixth largest television market in the country. Compare that to Hartford’s 27th largest market rating. Without a team in Los Angeles already, the NFL could ill afford to lose the huge market share.

Environmental concerns were also brought into the fold. It was brought to the attention of Kraft, the NFL, and Connecticut state officials that the riverfront area where the stadium would be located was contaminated with a plethora of chemicals.

Bob Kraft exercised an out clause in the Hartford contract two days before he would have been tied in and he escaped the agreement without financial penalty.

Eventually Kraft was able to get $72 million from the state of Massachusetts while he financed the rest.

The Krafts have 25 years to pay back that money to the state. This agreement kept the Pats in Foxboro at their current location off of Route 1.

http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2010/06/24/remember-when-the-patriots-almost-moved-to-hartford/

and

Never satisfied with the dump that was Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxborough Stadium, his search for a new home began in earnest.

Kraft and NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue met with Gov. Rowland and Connecticut business leaders. When the Massachusetts legislature failed to finance a stadium for the Patriots in July 1998, talks with Connecticut heated up.
Hartford was used as bait, many believe, to get the State of Massachusetts to kick in $70 million in infrastructure improvements in Foxborough, NFL loan guarantees, and commitments from the Boston-area business community for luxury suites.

Once those were secured, Kraft pulled the plug on Hartford on April 30, 1999. He, according to the Courant, cited delays in construction as the reason.

http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/...en_the_hartford_patriots_almost_happened.html

 

[shmessy]

He actually did accept it -- signed the papers and everything. However, the agreement had some outs related to construction times and/or hazmat issues (can't remember exactly) and he used that to back out of the deal later.

Who put the "outs" in the contract?

BTW, what was the last sentence in your first linked article?

There was only one point to the whole Hartford charade:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/03/n...ts-hartford-gets-a-check-for-2.4-million.html

"In the 10 months since the deal collapsed, Mr. Blumenthal had been looking into the possibility of suing the team or the league for essentially using Hartford as leverage in Massachusetts. But any legal action, Mr. Blumenthal said, would have been ''very costly, time-consuming, difficult and uncertain,'' and today's agreement prevents the state from seeking any further remedy in court."

 

[ReverendMaynard]

I could dust off my old moral philosophy and theology text books that I got from the Jesuits (if I could find them!), but I do recall that even orthodox (small "o") Catholic teaching acknowledges that remorse and intent are complex realities, between an individual's conscience and his/her God. Or, as Pope Francis put it in another context, "Who am I to judge?" Beyond that, we are going way OT and probably should take any further discussion along these lines to another Forum or Offline.

Back On Topic, as my OP suggested, I'm waiting to see how this plays out in Kraft's behavior over the next several months and years. The final chapter is not written and I am willing to wait before passing my own human judgment on the man.

Like I said, I'm not a priest, or anything close to it, so I'll pass on further discussion on the philosophy of forgiveness. My stance on Kraft is my own and not tied to any religion or philosopher. I just don't believe that he is truly sorry for his actions in the Framegate mess, and probably doesn't even believe he needs to pretend apologize at all for cameraplacementgate. He's obviously completely taken in by Fraudger and will continue to hitch his cart to that jackass for the foreseeable future. As long as he does, he's dead to me.

 

[raduray]

Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

The religion of Belichick: In the beginning, there was Bill....
Oh, wait....

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

The religion of Belichick: In the beginning, there was Bill....
Oh, wait....

 

[PatsFanSince74]

See:


http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2010/06/24/remember-when-the-patriots-almost-moved-to-hartford/

and


http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/...en_the_hartford_patriots_almost_happened.html

My takeaway from that is: Don't play Poker with Bob Kraft.

 

[RayClay]

?

The question of Connecticut came up several years after Kraft bought the team. Orthwein was long gone by 1998 when Governor Rowland and the CT legislature made the offer to Kraft.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

"Other owners" would never have had the opportunity to choose between conn and Mass, because there wouldn't have been other owners ever [unless they bought the St. Louis Stallions from Orthwein].

Orthwein was not selling the Patriots when he met with Kraft. He was trying to buy out the stadium lease so he could move the team to St. Louis. Kraft forced him to sell and to sell only to Kraft.

"Other owners" Connecticut? That's like one of those time travel shows. No other owner could have bought the team from someone who wasn't selling.

 

[RayClay]

great to see two great Pats Fans (Shmessy and RayClay) discuss as rabid fans

i hope that you are both still my friends

Best friends, Pat. Though Shmessy is starting to tick me off today!

I'd gladly trade you two weeks of foliage for two weeks with La Dolce Vita!

We don't get as dramatic foliage here in North Carolina anyway

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

"Other owners" would never have had the opportunity to choose between conn and Mass, because there wouldn't have been other owners ever [unless they bought the St. Louis Stallions from Orthwein].

Orthwein was not selling the Patriots when he met with Kraft. He was trying to buy out the stadium lease so he could move the team to St. Louis. Kraft forced him to sell and to sell only to Kraft.

"Other owners" Connecticut? That's like one of those time travel shows. No other owner could have bought the team from someone who wasn't selling.

That's how I remember it (though, admittedly, it was a long time ago). Orthwein, I believe, had a sweet deal in STL. He just needed out from the "stadium" deal in Foxboro. Kraft had very very smartly bought that "stadium" pile of junk and had the Patriots locked into it.
kraft leveraged that to buy the Patriots team from Orthwein (Orthwein probably thought he hit the jackpot with the, I believe, mid 100 million deal).
Kraft learned, or already knew, getting money from the local Pols was extremely difficult and the process itself was difficult. He was watching other teams get very sweet deals from cities, counties, states while the whole cost was on him for the new stadium.
Welcome to business 101. Kraft worked another deal that provided sweet subsidies then basically said to the local Pols 'you kick in or I walk out'. They eventually blinked, Kraft cancelled the move, the rest is history.
Kraft's business acumen was really on display back then...

 

[shmessy]

"Other owners" would never have had the opportunity to choose between conn and Mass, because there wouldn't have been other owners ever [unless they bought the St. Louis Stallions from Orthwein].

Orthwein was not selling the Patriots when he met with Kraft. He was trying to buy out the stadium lease so he could move the team to St. Louis. Kraft forced him to sell and to sell only to Kraft.

"Other owners" Connecticut? That's like one of those time travel shows. No other owner could have bought the team from someone who wasn't selling.

Ray.

Once again.....regarding Hartford, we are talking about 1998.

Orthwein was LONG GONE by then.

Why are you still bringing Orthwein back into something he had nothing to do with?

Kraft was a FREAKING HERO for saving the Patriots already in 1994 from Orthwein.

The Hartford offer did not come for another 4yrs and 10 months AFTER that.

It is a separate episode that has nothing to do with Orthwein.

To sum up, Ray:

Orthwein/Sale = 1993/1994
Hartford = 1998/1999

They are NOT one and the same subjects. (And Kraft was a HERO to all of us in BOTH instances).

.

 

[1960Pats]

So what you are saying is that there can't be a good owner? Kraft is very much the reason for BB being the coach here.

I never said he's a bad owner.