Bob George's article on Seymour

[IcyPatriot]

The more highest salaried players we have the closer we will become to being the Colts...I'd rather be the Patriots.

Keep the players who will accept less and tradeoff or release those that won't. We won 3 Super Bowls with heart, grit and coaching. I'd rather have A.J. Hawk or Mario Williams or (X)with money to spend elsewhere than to retain Seymour.

For every seymour that gets what he wants the team develops at least 2 more that will gain that mentality. Some of these players are like grade school kids fighting over grabbing more candy they don't even need. It's oh so easy to identify those of that mindset....use them as long as you can and then let them go with a return when possible.

 

[Ian]

Actually Miguel as usual you are correct

He signed a three year extension in 2002 (interesting article from Cornrich's site about it http://www.neilcornrich.com/2002/08/adam-vinatieri-signs-historical.html) and then was franchised just for last season.

Ian

 

[Pats726]

The more highest salaried players we have the closer we will become to being the Colts...I'd rather be the Patriots.

Keep the players who will accept less and tradeoff or release those that won't. For every seymour that gets what he wants the team develops at least 2 more that will gain that mentality. Some of these players are like grade school kids fighting over grabbing more candy they don't even need. It's oh so easy to identify those of that mindset....use them as long as you can and then let them go with a return when possible.

FBN...I think you may be onto something..closer to the Patriot's model. I guess you are saying that instead of looking at signing many of own FAs, the team should develop replacements always..so that if they go for the bucks, they can and will be replaced.. it makes sense in many ways. The exceptions (which there will be some..) may be more lifers here..very appreciative of what the TEAM is..as compared to others.

 

[Miguel]

I've heard this mentioned before (sorry I don't remember who to credit). But I've been puzzled about why it was a 'bad' contract.

My take.
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=33665

 

[arrellbee]

Oops, I forgot to carry the one. Seymour earned 4.25 million in escalators.

Info about the escalators -
"The 6-foot-6-inch, 299-pound defensive lineman from Georgia can make another $10 million in escalator clauses, but he would have be a Reggie White -type player to earn that over the life of the contract"
"Richard Seymour "can earn up to $3.4 million in salary escalators next year and $6.8 million in the final year of the deal based on performance, playing time, playoff appearances, and Pro Bowls. The escalators aren't easy to achieve, even for a player of his caliber."

" escalators are tied to playing time, playoffs and Pro Bowls. The playing time element could be starts, but it's most likely the percentage of defensive snaps he plays."

I guess I need a little clarification. I'm not sure what years the quote referred to, but it seems to state clearly that Seymour still has 6.8M of escalators possible this year. So if he already made 4.5M, then it seems like he can make the 10M in escalators.

Since 4.5M plus 6.8M add up to 11.3M, in my simple minded math says that is more than 10M.

If he has already earned 4.5M, how much didn't he earn that he could have so far ??

I'm sorry. Without knowing what the specifics of the LTBE/NLTBE were and an apples to apples comparison with draft picks 7th and lower, I'm a little dense and don't understand how we can label it a 'bad' contract.

I'm also sorry that I don't buy that the Patriots forcing him to sign a 6 year deal makes it a 'bad' contract. It seems to me that, since that length contract was allowed by the CBA, teams that didn't insist on that were actually signing 'bad' contracts for the team.

 

[Miguel]

I guess I need a little clarification. I'm not sure what years the quote referred to, but it seems to state clearly that Seymour still has 6.8M of escalators possible this year. So if he already made 4.5M, then it seems like he can make the 10M in escalators.

We know that Seymour's cap number is $4,420,160.
That number consists of
his $2,020,000 salary
$2,394,000 prior signing bonus proration
$6,160 in offseason workout bonus money.

If Seymour were to make the $10 Million in escalators, then his 2006 cap number should be higher.

 

[Miguel]

I'm sorry. Without knowing what the specifics of the LTBE/NLTBE were and an apples to apples comparison with draft picks 7th and lower, I'm a little dense and don't understand how we can label it a 'bad' contract.

This is what I know - RS fired 1st agent. Why?? The best answer is that he was unhappy with the 1st contract.

IMO, when a 4-time Pro Bowler, a 3-time All-Pro, a member of a team that won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years, a starter on a team that made it to the playoffs 4 of 5 years, a mainstay of a team that won 58 of 80 regular season games, earns less than half of his escalators, that is a bad deal, especially one considers that Seymour joined a 5-11 team.

I'm also sorry that I don't buy that the Patriots forcing him to sign a 6 year deal makes it a 'bad' contract. It seems to me that, since that length contract was allowed by the CBA, teams that didn't insist on that were actually signing 'bad' contracts for the team.

I was not selling that idea

 

[arrellbee]

I am truly sorry to be so dense, but there is this itch I can't get scratched.

You say that he has earned less than half of his escalators, yet your notes say the Patriots say that 5.5M of escalators are already earned and allocated to the last two years (out of 10M of total escalators in his original contract). So that already seems like over half and your notes seem to say: per Mike Reiss, the salary cap number doesn't include escalator amounts; and, in [February 29, 2004 update From the Boston Globe] note, it seems to say that there are still 6.8M in escalators still earnable in 2006.

In terms of original contracts, your URL reference (thank you !!) says Carter got a 14.2M deal over 6 years. Seymour (always crediting your notes) contract was 14.3M over 6 years. Carter's guaranteed money was 7.7M. Seymour's appears to add up to 11.0M. Carter's escalators were 17.5M while Seymour's were 10M - but I have no idea how favorable either were.

 

[Miguel]

I am truly sorry to be so dense, but there is this itch I can't get scratched.

You say that he has earned less than half of his escalators, yet your notes say the Patriots say that 5.5M of escalators are already earned and allocated to the last two years (out of 10M of total escalators in his original contract). So that already seems like over half and your notes seem to say: per Mike Reiss, the salary cap number doesn't include escalator amounts; and, in [February 29, 2004 update From the Boston Globe] note, it seems to say that there are still 6.8M in escalators still earnable in 2006.

Here's how I came up with the $4.25 million figure.

Seymour's 2005 and 2006 salaries were originally scheduled to be $1,120,000 in 2005 and $1,220,000 in 2006 for a total of $2,340,000. Seymour's 2005 salary was $2,870,000. Seymour's 2006 salary is $2,020,000. Seymour received a $1,700,000 signing bonus in 2005. 2,870,000 + 2,020,000 + 1,700,000= $6,590,000. $6,590,000 - $2,340,000=$4,250,000.

My notes do not say that the Patriots say that 5.5M of escalators are already earned and allocated to the last two years. My notes say "Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reported that "the Patriots basically tore up Seymour's old contract and gave him a deal that includes a $1.7 million signing bonus while keeping his salary at $2.8 million for 2005 and $5 million for 2006. Those salaries were enhanced by escalators totaling $5.5 million that Seymour earned in his rookie contract that will be disbursed over the final two years. The signing bonus, for cap purposes, was prorated over two years and added to the remaining proration of his original signing bonus. All told, Seymour's total pay this season will be $4.5 million." No where does Nick Cafardo quotes a Patriots official. As you can see on the NFLPA.org site, http://www.nflpa.org/members/playerProfile.asp?ID=30098 Seymour's 2006 salary is not $5 million. It is $2,020,000. "Will be disbursed" is not the same thing as actually being disbursed.

As my notes say "there are no salary escalators based on performance in Seymour's contract until 2005 and 2006" so if Seymour did reach $10 million in escalators his 2006 salary should be much higher than it is now.

 

[arrellbee]

Here's how I came up with the $4.25 million figure.

Seymour's 2005 and 2006 salaries were originally scheduled to be $1,120,000 in 2005 and $1,220,000 in 2006 for a total of $2,340,000. Seymour's 2005 salary was $2,870,000. Seymour's 2006 salary is $2,020,000. Seymour received a $1,700,000 signing bonus in 2005. 2,870,000 + 2,020,000 + 1,700,000= $6,590,000. $6,590,000 - $2,340,000=$4,250,000.

My notes do not say that the Patriots say that 5.5M of escalators are already earned and allocated to the last two years. My notes say "Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reported that "the Patriots basically tore up Seymour's old contract and gave him a deal that includes a $1.7 million signing bonus while keeping his salary at $2.8 million for 2005 and $5 million for 2006. Those salaries were enhanced by escalators totaling $5.5 million that Seymour earned in his rookie contract that will be disbursed over the final two years. The signing bonus, for cap purposes, was prorated over two years and added to the remaining proration of his original signing bonus. All told, Seymour's total pay this season will be $4.5 million." No where does Nick Cafardo quotes a Patriots official. As you can see on the NFLPA.org site, http://www.nflpa.org/members/playerProfile.asp?ID=30098 Seymour's 2006 salary is not $5 million. It is $2,020,000. "Will be disbursed" is not the same thing as actually being disbursed.

As my notes say "there are no salary escalators based on performance in Seymour's contract until 2005 and 2006" so if Seymour did reach $10 million in escalators his 2006 salary should be much higher than it is now.

Bad quoting on my part vis-a-vis Carfardo. Apologies - very bad on my part.

But I'm still not sure if you feel that Seymour has already earned 5.5M in escalators. Or if you think he does or does not have additional escalators or incentives attributable to 2006 that will add to new money ?? ??

 

[Miguel]

Bad quoting on my part vis-a-vis Carfardo. Apologies - very bad on my part.

But I'm still not sure if you feel that Seymour has already earned 5.5M in escalators. Or if you think he does or does not have additional escalators or incentives attributable to 2006 that will add to new money ?? ??

I feel that Seymour has earned $4.25 million in escalators and that will be his final total.

 

[bobgeorge]

A very minor nitpick - Adam was franchised twice, not 3 times.

I sort of anticipated this response. I counted the 2001 franchising which resulted in an eventual contract signing and the subsequent removal of the tag that year. I called Ian tonight and talked to him about this. If you take away the 2001 deal, then two times is the correct answer.

If you say twice, then let it be so. I take what you say as law.

 

[arrellbee]

I feel that Seymour has earned $4.25 million in escalators and that will be his final total.

Thanks !! Now I understand what your take is on his compensation.

 

[Miguel]

I sort of anticipated this response. I counted the 2001 franchising which resulted in an eventual contract signing and the subsequent removal of the tag that year. I called Ian tonight and talked to him about this. If you take away the 2001 deal, then two times is the correct answer.

If you say twice, then let it be so. I take what you say as law.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?player=2370

Adam was not franchised in 2001. He was franchised in 2002. I am including 2002 and 2005 to get to two.

http://www.nfl.com/news/01freeagency/index.html

Let facts be the law.

 

[JoeSixPat]

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?player=2370

Adam was not franchised in 2001. He was franchised in 2002. I am including 2002 and 2005 to get to two.

http://www.nfl.com/news/01freeagency/index.html

Let facts be the law.

I could have sworn that, in addition to the tagged/rescinded franchise tag of 2002 that Adam was tagged twice since - but maybe what I'm thinking of is that when he was tagged in 2005, because his previous year salary was already higher than the top 5 average at his position, he automatically got a 20% raise (as if he had been tagged the previous year)

That must be the case if he signed a 3 year deal in 2002

 

[State]

Pay the man the money. Period.

You pay difference makers the qwan, man. I remember Seymour absolutely dominating the Bronco OG in the hapless playoff game. Hamilton I think his name was. ***** [female dog] slapped him silly.

Seymour is too young, too dominant, too much of a difference maker for the gloomy George article thesis to play out.

Intelligence is bucking one's trend, knowing when to break a self-imposed rule. Belichek will show his smarts by doing what he normally won't do.

Unless Seymour is totally ridiculous in his contract negotiations, he will become the highest paid defensive lineman and stay three or more years more with the Patriots. It's a done deal. They're getting it lined up.

How many "difference makers" have we had in this organization on the D-line? Sugar Bear Hamilton, Julius Adams, Andre Tippett--the last two guys were DEs. Come on, we've never had a physically dominant DL. Garin Veris had good speed, Ray Agnew--another high draft pick--never really panned out. Seymour (at the time, people like Eddie Andleman were hoping for us to nab David Terrell) is the Ken Simms (and we could have freakin' had LT!) we've never had and always pined for.

They let him go, and I go back to the team of my childhood: the Detroit Lions.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

They let him go, and I go back to the team of my childhood: the Detroit Lions.

Please close the tailgate on your way off the bandwagon. Thanks!

 

[State]

Double team Seymour or die

Jacksonville double teamed Seymour the whole playoff game. One of the very few O-lineman I've seen consistently handle Seymour in a game without help is Willie Roaf of the Chiefs, a perennial all-pro.

So even if Seymour's stats aren't that good, he's still making a big difference by opening it up for other players. Around the league he's considered the best lineman, a cut above the huge studs Jacksonville has.

So if we don't ante up, I guarantee there'll be a line to do it.

 

[Danny Boy®]

http://www.patsfans.com/bob/display_story.php?story_id=2952

Pretty interesting read.

It sure is....Bob must read my usenet posts.

:eat1:

 

[PatsFanInEaglesLand]

I wonder what Bob has to say for his article now.