Bob George's article on Seymour

Discussion in ' - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Miguel, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru Supporter

    #75 Jersey

  2. Hoodie

    Hoodie 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    This is Bob George speculation. He has no sources here. I think these writers make a mistake when they try to explain anyone's motivation by wondering what they'd do in the same situation. The Seymour grandfather thing has been made a huge deal but when Seymour's father died, the whole team attended including BB, and Bob Kraft.

    I don't mean to say that I think that will keep Seymour here, just that he's leaving won't be because he was benched when his grandfather died.
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    A couple of comments.

    First, the end game isn't discussed. How will he leave ? Certainly not as a UFA. He could be traded before 2006 or as a Franchised player in 2007. But he won't leave for nothing except a #3 comp pick. Write that down.

    And :

    Should read "He instead will think more about his ego and greed" because the Patriots would offer him more than enought for his family, future and long term finacial security.
  4. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

    That would be disasterous, and would make saving all this money up this offseason worthless.
  5. patsox23

    patsox23 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    I like Bob in general, but this piece seems like a calm, low-key version of hysterical. The Patriots can get something done here, it's far from decided, and the next few months of inaction don't matter since they're simply not allowed to negotiate another deal until August. People need to breathe.
  6. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    This incident in 03 to me has been misunderstood. I tend to think it was more of a non-communication problem between RS and the team; something that NONE of us know for sure. There's been plenty of speculation, but I don't think anyone knows all the details.
  7. milwaukeebeers44

    milwaukeebeers44 On the Game Day Roster

    Is it just me, or did the Pats writers start taking classes from the Sox columnists on gloom and doom? Christ, it's April.
  8. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru Supporter

    #75 Jersey

    A very minor nitpick - Adam was franchised twice, not 3 times.
  9. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru Supporter

    #75 Jersey

    What is so important about NOT having the highest paid player at his position on the Patriots roster??
  10. Hoodie

    Hoodie 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    I agree. Since then several other players have had a death in the family (Faulk & Izzo come to mind) and all have said how they appreciated the Pats flexibility in allowing them to be with their families.
  11. Pats67

    Pats67 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Where does that stop?
  12. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    I don't know what happened and I think it is highly speculative to know exactly what did and why he was not allowed to start. Saying he went to his grandfather's funeral and saying that was the reason is certainly far from the real truth.
  13. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

    #37 Jersey

    If you notice MB44, most writers and some posters are just player rump suckers, but the Pats always spend to the cap and over with bonuses. So I would like to know how the organization is cheap? And their model has worked, I guess some around here would rather take the approach and have the same success as the Redskins and Seahawks who seem to have won the free agency championship.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  14. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up Supporter

    I agree. But I just can't believe Seymour is holding a grudge for three years
    against BB who was following a team policy. To me that is absurd.
    Can't believe it of Seymour. If Seymour goes it's because of money. IMO.
  15. zippo59

    zippo59 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    I keep hearing this statement from fans and the media that Seymour wants to become the highest paid at his position. Has anyone actually heard him say this? It seems like this is all gloom and doom speculation to me. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. I just wanna know where everyone is getting this from.
  16. kolbitr

    kolbitr Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    I mildly disagree with this being an "interesting read." With respect to the writer, it is, in my opinion, an infuriating read. While I can't argue with the possible financial incentives, the rest of it, which is clearly meant to provide salacious lipstick to this wrinkled story, provides only dusty speculation. We have, once again, innuendo being substituted for news and serious reflection. There is nothing new provided, neither quotes nor even rumours from "anonymous sources". The fact that Seymour was unhappy, or furious, or offended, in 2003, need not necessarily hinder progress on a long-term deal in the present.

    The article keeps coming back to the primary issue of money, but even there provides nothing truly new, alas.

    The secondary issue--involving loss, grief, and professionalism, and BB's often demanding (perhaps unsettling for some) standards of the latter--are interesting topics, and should, I feel, be worthy of a more sensitive and thoughtful treatment, and one separated from the issue of who gets the most cash.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks Supporter Supporter

    I can understand that people don't want to dwell on potential negatives, or perhaps deal with potential problems that do not yet fully exist. But the handwriting has been on the wall in Richard's case for a while now. Most of the writers who routinely mention it do so because they have seen first hand or heard second hand from their peers that Richard is not happy. On a couple of levels. Financial is the one that matters most, and the one that still could carry the day if the Pats decide they want it too. Ditto with Adam, the sad thing there being it seems with a gun held to their heads they were willing to in his case. But it was likely those other underlying resentments related to past treatment that led to his not letting them. Those are likely the underlying reason Richard will not meet them half way where his contract is concerned.

    I believe these players all respect BB, and even like him on some level. But he's not a touchy feely guy or one who believes that football players who really care about winning should need a level of emotional stroking from their HC just to keep their hearts in winning. Not that it would have changed things necessarily, but I think he misses RAC and Charlie on some level. I think to an extent they both brought a level of hands on passionate individual motivation combined with fatherly personal understanding to their dealings with some of these guys that just isn't BB's forte. And they were good sounding boards for BB and perhaps facilitators between him and his players. Mangini and McDaniels age and personas just didn't fit the bill in that respect either.

    We can discount parting shots as sour grapes, but we keep hearing about a lack of personalized communication that I think is unfortunately just rooted in BB's personality. Givens saying he had his first really good talk ever with BB just before he signed anyway with Tennessee. Troy only rethinking his options only after after being informed (by the media) that BB spoke out publicly about how much he valued him as a member of the organization. They all have egos or they never would have made it in the NFL. I know Bob Kraft tries to fill in the blanks without stepping on football operations toes. But for some of these guys that simply isn't enough. They want or need to hear it from the football man. And they often communicate their needs to the organization quietly but firmly through backchannel off the record discussions with those in the media they have developed a relationship with. Even Brady used that tack to voice his frustration (Tom Curren's lone piece) when his contract negotiations had bogged down even while the spin emanating from Foxboro was it was a done deal.

    If he truly wants to retain certain players without breaking a financial model he has also backchannel communicated to the media he is determined to maintain, he may have to learn to bend a tad on the personality model. If not the selection pool just shrinks and only thick skinned self motivators on all levels need apply. Guys like Brady who while momentarily devastated at the loss of his best friend Lawyer Milloy 5 days before a season opener, was able to move on because more than anyhting he wants to continue winning here. That's what matters to him, and it's exactly what matters to BB - and I think he just can't appreciate why the here let alone the winning part isn't sufficient to hold them all.

    And I believe the reason the team is so reluctant if not determined not to have highest paid players on the roster is pretty self evident. BB sees it as the underpinning of the entire TEAM concept. No one player is valued above his teamates. He may be paid more or less already based on his individual position because of the overall value placed on a particular position within the game, but he will not be singled out as the most valuable on this team or in the entire league by virtue of his contract here. And it will be clear this is done not to save money for the franchise except to be spent on a higher caliber of teamate for you to play along side. It's part of his philosophy of the self policing team - players (particularly in leadership positions) are as responsible for what this team can be as he is.

    If each of the top 10 players and leaders on this team demand another half a million or a million for themselves for whatever reason, just understand that's another $5-$10M the team cannot access to field a better deeper team across the board. It's a tough nut to maintain in a league where a guys career can be over in an instant. And it becomes even tougher to maintain when players in leadership roles openly balk at the concept when it comes time to do their deal. Leading by example is the only way to maintain it, because players are reluctant to ask or tell others to take less. All they can do is show them what they did and let them decide whether or not to follow. Richard just sounds like the typical guy who appreciates his surrounding cast on one level, but doesn't believe he should be expected to forego anything financially or emotionally on their behalf in order that they can continue winning here.
  18. kolbitr

    kolbitr Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Thoughtful post. I have wondered myself whether the dynamic hasn't been negatively affected by the loss of two men who were, according to all reports, very different from Bill Belichick. They were more volatile, emotional, paternal, and, undoubtedly, garrulous. Good management requires, I suspect, both types--the genius, and the generous.

    I admire the hell out of Belichick (being a fellow Wesleyan alum doesn't hurt), but I wish that the RAC and Charlie replacements had been more like them than they him. Perhaps Pees will bring more of that to the table this year, but time is needed for him to establish himself. Brady will be more on his own.
  19. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- Supporter

    #24 Jersey

    I think that if you approach the draft and free agency with this thought then you are doing your job properly as a GM.

    - Every player wants the maximum guaranteed money possible.

    - Every players agent discounts coaching as a reason for their players success.

    - Hometown discounts are luck and should never be assumed.

    - Trade players who are young and wish to play out their contract to Free Agency.

    - These are athletes...they are athletes mostly because they strive to win and hate to lose...why fans assume a successful athlete will stay for less money is laughable...they credit their success with their hard more and no less. Losing is not what they strive to do.

    Tom Ashworth...if ever there was a player who owed most of their success to a team it was Tom...and what was it that he did??? I don't blame him...I would do the same...99% of those here would do it to.

    So why would a winner trade their bishops and knights for pawns???

    Football is chess...if you play chess then apply all you know about chess to football...they are mirror images of each other. I mean, when have you ever traded a bishop for a pawn with no strategic advantage to the move?

    Emotion has nothing to do with it. Bob is right on or very close to right. I wouldn't be surprised to Seymour traded for draft picks at some similar pieces can give a great strategic advantage.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  20. fgssand

    fgssand Supporter Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    I have to say I am somewhat disappointed with several assumptions / opinions that Bob George seemed to be making and using as basis for fact in writing such a negative article.

    Please find below a few points he raised followed by what seems to me to be very possible based on what RS has actually said, what others have said about RS that I have read as well as my own thoughts.

    For example:

    1) RS wont be back because he does not want to? - How could you possibly know this?

    2) RS is content with 3 rings and doesn't need/want anymore?? - I think he was misinterpreting Richard Seymour and totally downplaying the competitive fire within him. He did not even consider the rapport RS has with certain teammates and coaches and most important - how much a championship really does mean to him.

    3) RS must be the highest DL in the game? He has never said that, he has actually said he does not understand what hometown discount means and that Foxboro is not his hometown, but he has also said he is not looking necessarily to break the bank or be the highest paid, he simply seeks respect and money commensurate with his talent.

    4) RS resents BB handling of his time off and return from his grandfathers funeral. Bob George seemed to make this into a situation of RS holding this as a three year grudge. I think this was a misunderstanding and has been cleared up long ago. I actually think, later on, RS was shown a great deal of respect by the outpouring of support from the entire patriot organization over the incident with his Dad. I feel that he must have very much appreciated everything that his fellow players, coach's and ownership did to show how much they care for him as a person.

    5) "Either Foxborough’s not Seymour’s kind of town, or Belichick’s not his kind of coach. Or both." The article ended with that sentence, yet I did not find one shred of evidence to substantiate.

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