Bill Simmons "hears" that Moss and AD are gone, BB is "blowing it up"

[emoney_33]

This all stemmed from the fact that you were hung up on stats and i said stats dont tell the whole story. and since you wanted to push otherwise i'd play your game and chose a few important stats such as 1st down catches in crucial situations i.e 3rd down or catching percentage which your daddy randy moss doesn't have a catch percentage in the top 20 in the nfl - and me saying that id prefer 2 hypothetical WRs which were decent to good over 1 randy moss due to the fact that randy is too specialized to one aspect of the game - the deep ball. and that the deep ball has a low percentage completion rate and that i would prefer WRs who could generate 15-25 yard gains per reception and gain some YAC. I can see this is going no where because it boils down to simple preference of having one really good thing or having two good things. Obviously our preferences are different and i tend to like to spread my assets around more and you like to put all your eggs into one basket - good day sir

1.) You cannot use one STUPID stat to disprove ALL stats.

2.) Catch percentage is generally meaningless. Throw 2 passes, miss one and get a 50 yard TD in the other is more successful than 2 completions for 10-15 yards.

3.) No receiver in the NFL can generate 15-25 yard gains per reception while maintaining high completion %. Stop playing Madden!

4.) This "one really good thing" has produced a pass offense that is better than any other pass offense we have had except for 2007, which he helped make the best offense ever.

5.) 3rd down stats is not a defining stat for any receiver, it's just absurd to argue this point. A team definitely needs a possession receiver as PART of the team, but it is like saying a 3rd down running back is more important than an every down running back.

6.) In the end the goal of the offense is to SCORE and Moss adds more points to a team than Welker, end of story. I still cannot believe you are arguing Welker over Moss, when Moss is what makes Welker that much more dangerous.

7.) You can't point to Welker being good unless you use stats, but you already deemed all stats as useless. Oh right except for the ones that SEEM to help your argument.

Just stop it please. This is making me seem like I dislike Welker when I absolute love him and admire his grit and passion.

 

[Seneschal2]

Thanks to KontradictioN and emoney_33 for their sensible posts.

My take:

In order for Belichick to suppress his QB's frustrations, it's far easier to gift wrap a reliable third receiving option for next season, then to dismantle the entire WR corps. An intermediate type complement to Moss, who simply has the ability to get open down the field (not short zone slots like Welker and Edelman). In essence, an upgrade to Aiken. It's understated to say that familiarity between Brady and his receiving options is crucial to the success of the entire offense. I'm suggesting a FA solution first, with perhaps a draftee also.

And not to worry about any RB and O-line concerns, as they'll most likely be prioritized -- but not overhauled. JMO.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

it's far easier to gift wrap a reliable third receiving option for next season, then to dismantle the entire WR corps.

:agree:

That's about as succinct a way of putting it as I can think of.

 

[BelichickFan]

:agree:

That's about as succinct a way of putting it as I can think of.

I agree too. I expect, and want, Moss back. That said, anyone who thinks Moss played 100% all season and that he and Brady didn't have problems at a personal level is kidding himself. Maybe it was because Moss was hurt. But he did take it easy on the field and he and Brady did have problems. So it's not impossible they'll decide to move on.

 

[slash83]

Unless BB makes a move of a Boldin or Marshall type WR Moss is not going anywhere.

 

[stavros27]

I almost feel bad watching emoney destroy anti moss fans left and right with basic logic and cold hard facts.

With the way people talk about him here, one would think that his season rivaled Joey Galloway's this year.

 

[upstater1]

Thanks to KontradictioN and emoney_33 for their sensible posts.

My take:

In order for Belichick to suppress his QB's frustrations, it's far easier to gift wrap a reliable third receiving option for next season, then to dismantle the entire WR corps. An intermediate type complement to Moss, who simply has the ability to get open down the field (not short zone slots like Welker and Edelman). In essence, an upgrade to Aiken. It's understated to say that familiarity between Brady and his receiving options is crucial to the success of the entire offense. I'm suggesting a FA solution first, with perhaps a draftee also.

And not to worry about any RB and O-line concerns, as they'll most likely be prioritized -- but not overhauled. JMO.

Why not be more ambitious? Instead of trotting out Sammy Morris on 4 WR sets, grab two rookies or else a rookie and a top tier vet, and send 4 WRs out there. We have Tom Brady. Give him what Drew Brees has. Clearly, these guys want to take advantage of today's bing-bing-bing NFL.

But when 2 of your 4 guys are Aiken and Morris, you're going to get your QB killed.

I've been hearing a lot about this return to smashmouth offense and stellar defenses, as though that's what New England was in the past, and then I see Brady setting Super Bowl records for completions, and 5 receptions or more each to 4 different players, including 10 to Branch. 330 yards and 3 TDs.

And no, the year was not 2007 but 2003. You can win a Super Bowl with your defense giving up 350 passing yards, and with your offense throwing 50 times. The old Patriots of the good old days did it, and they did it by throwing to David Givens and Deion Branch and Troy Brown and David Patten and Kevin Faulk, etc.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Why not be more ambitious? Instead of trotting out Sammy Morris on 4 WR sets, grab two rookies or else a rookie and a top tier vet, and send 4 WRs out there. We have Tom Brady. Give him what Drew Brees has. Clearly, these guys want to take advantage of today's bing-bing-bing NFL.

But when 2 of your 4 guys are Aiken and Morris, you're going to get your QB killed.

I've been hearing a lot about this return to smashmouth offense and stellar defenses, as though that's what New England was in the past, and then I see Brady setting Super Bowl records for completions, and 5 receptions or more each to 4 different players, including 10 to Branch. 330 yards and 3 TDs.

And no, the year was not 2007 but 2003. You can win a Super Bowl with your defense giving up 350 passing yards, and with your offense throwing 50 times. The old Patriots of the good old days did it, and they did it by throwing to David Givens and Deion Branch and Troy Brown and David Patten and Kevin Faulk, etc.

Tom Brady's legitimate weapons: Ben Watson, Randy Moss (when hes not completely taken out of the game by the opposing D), Wes Welker/Edleman, Kevin Fualk

Drew Brees' Legitimate weapons: Robert Meachem, Marques Colston, Devry Henderson, Jeremy Shockey, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Reggie Bush

One is an elite offense the other is a struggling one, can you figure out which is which? The answer might surprise you.

 

[upstater1]

Tom Brady's legitimate weapons: Ben Watson, Randy Moss (when hes not completely taken out of the game by the opposing D), Wes Welker/Edleman, Kevin Fualk

Drew Brees' Legitimate weapons: Robert Meachem, Marques Colston, Devry Henderson, Jeremy Shockey, Lance Moore, Pierre Thomas, Reggie Bush

One is an elite offense the other is a struggling one, can you figure out which is which? The answer might surprise you.

The Patriots with Moss and Welker have the studs, but what I'm championing is diversification. And that's what the Saints have over the Patriots. You listed 4 Patriots for next year, assuming Watson comes back, but the Saints have 7 guys in that diversified list, and that makes all the difference. You just can't cover everybody. We slip in Sammy Morris for Reggie Bush and Sam Aiken for Devery Henderson and Isaiah Stanback for Lance Moore.

 

[PowerAlley.com]

I wouldnt be surprized if Brady and Bill are sick of "babying" moss.

 

[furley]

I can only hope so. Brady must get back to spreading the ball around, and if trading Moss helps to facilitate that. I'm in support of it. This team needs to return to being a team about defense and running the ball. It's nice to have a Tom Brady, but you can prolong his career by easing some of that pressure off of him. And you do so by strengthening your offensive line and running the ball. I wish that whoever becomes the new offensive coordinator places an emphasis on getting the ball to the tight end as well. That's what is missing from the passing game. Brady relies too much on Welker and Faulk. If you want to throw it to a running back. Why don't you call more plays for the lead running back to catch the ball out of the back field more. See, here's where a creative offensive coordinator helps. He's more imaginative. So I hope that if Belichick decides to draft another running back. He's one that has good hands among other positive attributes.

 

[TriplecHamp]

The Patriots with Moss and Welker have the studs, but what I'm championing is diversification. And that's what the Saints have over the Patriots. You listed 4 Patriots for next year, assuming Watson comes back, but the Saints have 7 guys in that diversified list, and that makes all the difference. You just can't cover everybody. We slip in Sammy Morris for Reggie Bush and Sam Aiken for Devery Henderson and Isaiah Stanback for Lance Moore.

Exactly, The Saints have a better offense for a reason, you cant double anybody and if you do, Devery Henderson will burn you for 6. How many times did Aiken burn anybody for anything?

 

[upstater1]

Exactly, The Saints have a better offense for a reason, you cant double anybody and if you do, Devery Henderson will burn you for 6. How many times did Aiken burn anybody for anything?

Twice LOL.

I think we agree.

 

[Metaphors]

it's far easier to gift wrap a reliable third receiving option for next season, then to dismantle the entire WR corps.

Also agree. In fact, the likely next generation of the WR corps is already partially here:

Edelman is an ideal #4. Plays inside on the 4-wide, can play the slot or flanker when needed and plays special teams. He already has a solid rapport with Brady which means he is already taken up his position in the rotation.

Tate can be either a flanker or split end, but injuries and lack of practice time have set him back. Since nobody knows his health status, I'm not going to argue with the "his career is over at age 22" crowd. If his health checks out and he can get on the same page as Brady, that is 2 spots locked in.

Expect another couple in this draft. My guess is that a new back (McCluster, McKnight) and TE (several interesting choices in this draft) will be added. In 2011, the Pats will be in position to get one of the elite WRs. So in the next 18 months, the receivers can be almost completely reinvented without "blowing it up".

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree too. I expect, and want, Moss back. That said, anyone who thinks Moss played 100% all season and that he and Brady didn't have problems at a personal level is kidding himself. Maybe it was because Moss was hurt. But he did take it easy on the field and he and Brady did have problems. So it's not impossible they'll decide to move on.

Moss was definitely hurt, so I agree that he wasn't 100%. As far as problems at a personal level, I don't know one way or the other.

On a side note, anyone yearning for a return to the days of Branch/Givens/Patten/Brown has an incredibly selective memory. Those offenses weren't nearly as good as 2007 offense, and only 2004's was as good as (arguably better than) 2009's, on the strength of a power running game that we no longer have. Moss gives this offense a much higher ceiling than it could possibly have without him.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I almost feel bad watching emoney destroy anti moss fans left and right with basic logic and cold hard facts.

With the way people talk about him here, one would think that his season rivaled Joey Galloway's this year.

The only problem is that none of the anti-moss folks are operating from a place of logic and facts, so it doesn't really matter to them. It's pretty much always some variation of "he just doesn't have it (it being something vague and conveniently indefinable).

 

[BelichickFan]

Moss was definitely hurt, so I agree that he wasn't 100%. As far as problems at a personal level, I don't know one way or the other.

There was no doubt Moss was "sulking" on the bench in the Carolina game when Brady was talking to him.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Like I said, anecdotal evidence aside. I never played football, but I would think it translates to this sport as well - some people embrace pressure (or convince themselves that it doesn't exist or it doesn't matter), while others, for all their talent, do not. If you don't know what I'm talking about, that's fine, my wife doesn't either. Maybe it doesn't translate to football. Even though I root against him, Jeter knows what I'm talking about, so does Welker and Rice - you don't disappear when it gets juicy. This is no knock on Moss. He was obviously injured the end of this year, but I do have reservations as he does appear to be a little needy.

What makes you so sure that Welker knows what you're talking about and Moss doesn't? Last time I checked, Moss caught a TD in the super bowl...

 

[BradyFTW!]

There was no doubt Moss was "sulking" on the bench in the Carolina game when Brady was talking to him.

hate to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely no way that you can tell how players relate to each other based on a couple of short clips that you see on TV. The sideline is a heated environment, and if you asked Brady or Welker, for example, I'm sure they had confrontations there too that the TV didn't (or maybe did) pick up. As did Belichick and Brady, Welker and Belichick, and any other reasonable combination of guys that you want to assemble.

 

[BelichickFan]

hate to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely no way that you can tell how players relate to each other based on a couple of short clips that you see on TV.

Of course I shouldn't have said I know for sure but with Brady trying to talk to him, Moss not even turning to look at him and then Moss' performance in the game, I'm willing to take the leap.