Bengals' Thurman, Bucs' Cox file discrimination claims against NFL

[QuiGon]

I think people are getting all needlessly worked up over something which is nothing more than a semantic argument. Bottom line is the DaBruinz is right and addictions to gambling, drugs, drinking, spending, sex, etc, have been ruled by courts time and again as not being covered under the A.D.A. or defined as handicaps (or diseases) requiring coverage by that law.

How frightening is it that I have become the voice of reason..? God help us.

 

[Fixit]

I think people are getting all needlessly worked up over something which is nothing more than a semantic argument. Bottom line is the DaBruinz is right and addictions to gambling, drugs, drinking, spending, etc, have been ruled by courts time and again as not being covered under the A.D.A. or defined as handicaps (or diseases) requiring coverage by that law.

How frightening is it that I have become the voice of reason..? God help us.

Hey, congrats!

 

[Pujo]

Interestingly enough, I just asked a guy in rehab for alcoholism whether he thought it's a disease, and he said, "Not really."

That proves it for me! Almost as much as BelichickFan's "I know they're wrong based on my attempts to lose weight..." Next time I need medical advice I'll just come here, since we seem to have so many experts

 

[Pujo]

I think people are getting all needlessly worked up over something which is nothing more than a semantic argument. Bottom line is the DaBruinz is right and addictions to gambling, drugs, drinking, spending, sex, etc, have been ruled by courts time and again as not being covered under the A.D.A. or defined as handicaps (or diseases) requiring coverage by that law.

How frightening is it that I have become the voice of reason..? God help us.

Bingo, it's just a word.

 

[BelichickFan]

So you need to find another word to describe that, because disease has already been taken to mean something else. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of convention. Disease can be whatever people agree it is, and people in the field are going to have a bit more sway over some people on a football forum.

I'm not claiming that the medical establishment will listen to me - but part of a discussion forum is talking about what we think should be not what is (I don't pay attention to what % of doctors say it's a disease or their reasons why). I know they don't know a damn thing about weight loss - God bless Dr. Atkins.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

What does the cause have to do with it being a disease? If it causes a physical change in the body or brain that leads to health consequences, it's a disease. If you smoke, you can get lung cancer, but lung cancer's a disease despite your active and willing participation, likewise for drinking and cirrhosis of the liver, or overeating and heart disease. Now as a society we might choose to treat self-inflicted diseases differently, but don't muddy up what's a medical term. The fact that heavy alcoholics can actually die from suddenly discontinuing drinking (delirium tremens) hints at alcohol's ability to make physical changes to the body.

But even if alcohol is a disease or disability, being not drunk is a bona-fide job requirement for most places, doubly so when your job involves being hit, and bona-fide job requirements aren't covered by the ADA (for example, you can't be forced to hire a wheelchair bound firefighter).

Smoking is NOT a disease. It may CAUSE disease, but it is not one. Drinking is also NOT a disease, but it may CAUSE disease. It is still a choice to drink or smoke. If a person consumes too much of any one thing, it seems to have ill effects on the body.

There are a lot of people with addictive personalities and can't seem to control their drinking or smoking (or what ever habit). The NFL has strict policies about drinking and behavior. These guys have continually done stupid things and made poor choices, choosing to ignore the NFL policies. All their doing is trying to find a way AROUND the system, without taking any responsibility for their actions.

 

[Fixit]

That proves it for me! Almost as much as BelichickFan's "I know they're wrong based on my attempts to lose weight..." Next time I need medical advice I'll just come here, since we seem to have so many experts

Enough with the argument over the definition of "disease." Do you think Thurman is right? Was he treated unfairly because of his, ahem, disability?

 

[patchick]

But even if alcohol is a disease or disability, being not drunk is a bona-fide job requirement for most places, doubly so when your job involves being hit, and bona-fide job requirements aren't covered by the ADA (for example, you can't be forced to hire a wheelchair bound firefighter).

I think this is the crux of the matter. Whether or not it's a disease, did the NFL discriminate on the basis of the diagnosis of alcoholism, and/or fail to provide reasonable accommodations for this disability?

The EEOC website addresses the status of drug and alcohol addiction quite clearly and directly:

* Current illegal use of drugs is not protected by the ADA. You do not need to hire or retain someone who is currently engaging in the illegal use of drugs. Tests for the current illegal use of drugs are permitted at any time prior to or during employment.
* While people with alcoholism may be individuals with disabilities, the ADA still allows employers to hold them to the same performance and conduct standards as all other employees, including rules prohibiting drinking on the job.

Example: An employer may fire an employee who is drinking alcohol while on the job if it has a uniformly applied rule prohibiting such conduct.

But: There may be times when you may have to accommodate an employee with alcoholism. For example, an employer may have to modify a rule prohibiting personal phone calls at work for an employee with alcoholism who periodically has to contact his "AA sponsor," if the employee has a need to do so during work hours.

So the NFL is clearly allowed to set standards for use of drugs and alcohol. I think the claim Thurman in particular must be making is that they refused to reinstate him not because of his conduct but because of his disability, i.e. the fact that he has been diagnosed an alcoholic. Very, very shake case IMO.

 

[BelichickFan]

That proves it for me! Almost as much as BelichickFan's "I know they're wrong based on my attempts to lose weight..." Next time I need medical advice I'll just come here, since we seem to have so many experts

If you ever need to lose weight, go ahead and try the low fat, high carb crap doctors recommend. Good luck with that.

 

[Pujo]

Smoking is NOT a disease. It may CAUSE disease, but it is not one. Drinking is also NOT a disease, but it may CAUSE disease. It is still a choice to drink or smoke. If a person consumes too much of any one thing, it seems to have ill effects on the body.

I never said smoking or drinking are diseases, even to excess. I'm saying that the PHYSICAL ADDICTION to smoking and drinking is a disease.

 

[Oswlek]

Interestingly enough, I just asked a guy in rehab for alcoholism whether he thought it's a disease, and he said, "Not really."

My dad's side of the family is littered with alcoholics. What I can tell you is that those who "survived" all had plenty of other issues that are remarkably similar to alcohol addiction.

Not only that, but you would be surprised at just how similar the energy (I can't really describe it any differently) is in the post-drinking alcoholic. My father doesn't drink and hasn't for years, but in many ways he carries around that same shackles that he always did.

Again, you have to drink to become a drunk. There is no two ways about. That is the choice. But once it gets to a certain level it is just as uncontrolable though will-power as any standard disease. For every tried and true alcoholic that quick cold turkey (and I know one) I can find you someone who sent their cancer into remission by meditation and energy type healing.

 

[Fixit]

That proves it for me! Almost as much as BelichickFan's "I know they're wrong based on my attempts to lose weight..." Next time I need medical advice I'll just come here, since we seem to have so many experts

Why listen to the players? The media are the experts!

 

[BelichickFan]

But once it gets to a certain level it is just as uncontrolable though will-power as any standard disease.

No it's not. It may be very, very hard. But it's not as uncontrolable. If an alcoholic wants to stop drinking, he can - although it may be tough. If my mother wants to stop having cancer - how exactly does she do that again ?

 

[Fixit]

...I can find you someone who sent their cancer into remission by meditation and energy type healing.

Or it just went into remission, much like it tends to do even when cancer patients don't meditate. I'm a big believer in the healing power of the mind, but your example ain't exactly convincing.

 

[Pujo]

Why listen to the players? The media are the experts!

So in your analogy, the "players" are random people on a football forum, and the "media" are doctors in the field?

 

[Oswlek]

No it's not. It may be very, very hard. But it's not as uncontrolable. If an alcoholic wants to stop drinking, he can - although it may be tough. If my mother wants to stop having cancer - how exactly does she do that again ?

Spoken like someone who has no experience with addiction.

 

[QuiGon]

If you ever need to lose weight, go ahead and try the low fat, high carb crap doctors recommend. Good luck with that.

I needed to lose weight a while ago and I invented my own, radical new diet... what I did was I reduced the amount of sodas, candy and fast food I ate, and I increased the amount of exercise I did (nothing major... just going for walks and light calisthenics). This diet actually worked..!! I am thinking of writing a book and going on tour.

 

[Fixit]

So in your analogy, the "players" are random people on a football forum, and the "media" are doctors in the field?

No, the players are the actual people who are addicts. Every one I've ever talked to, and there have been several, have referred to their addictions as weaknesses, not a disease.

But we're back to the definition stage.

 

[Fixit]

Spoken like someone who has no experience with addiction.

Explain how it's inaccurate. Saying it's hard, but possible: how is that wrong?

 

[BelichickFan]

I needed to lose weight a while ago and I invented my own, radical new diet... what I did was I reduced the amount of sodas, candy and fast food I ate, and I increased the amount of exercise I did (nothing major... just going for walks and light calisthenics). This diet actually worked..!! I am thinking of writing a book and going on tour.

To paraphrase from Clinton :

"It's the sugar, stupid".