2010 NFL MVP Debate (merged several times)

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

There are some people who will just never come around; they've dug too deep a hole and refuse to admit they're stuck.

The majority of those Dolphins fans agree that Brady is in the discussion of greatest ever. It's always the loudest and most self-assured who is furthest from the truth.

 

[sieglo]

This dude in the Dolphins board is so ridiculously stupid that I'm a little enraged right now, so I thought I'd destroy his argument just for fun. Let's take the ten QBs he put ahead of Brady on the "all time greats" list, (sans Otto Graham, because he played in the 40's and 50's and football was simply a different sport back then) and also include Peyton Manning. Now, I'll rank this QBs by TD%+, INT%+ and QB Rating+. Theses stats measure a QBs efficiency taking into account the league average in the timespan in which they put up certain statistics. So let's say the league average in QB Rating in a given year was 80 and a certain quarterback had an 88 QBR in said year. Now, his QBR+ would be 110, because he was 10% better than the average in that season.

That's how this works. I chose these stats because they provide come context and I also believe they are the best indicators of a QBs efficiency. Everyone else is free to chime in with their own research. So, without further ado, here's the rankings:

Joe Montana - TD%+: 111 RANK: 7th; INT%+: 118 RANK: 1st; QBR+: 123 RANK: 2nd

Johnny U. - TD%+: 105 RANK: 9th(t); INT%+: 108 RANK: 7th; QBR+: 112 RANK: 8th(t)

Dan Marino - TD%+: 112 RANK: 5th(t); INT%+: 109 RANK: 6th; QBR+: 113 RANK: 7th

John Elway - TD%+: 102 RANK: 11th; INT%+: 107 RANK: 8th; QBR+: 105 RANK: 11th

Fran Tarkenton - TD%+: 106 RANK: 8th; INT%+: 112 RANK: 5th; QBR+: 114 RANK: 6th

Steve Young - TD%+: 120 RANK: 1st; INT%+: 113 RANK: 4th; QBR+: 126 RANK: 1st

Brett Favre - TD%+: 113 RANK: 4th; INT%+: 98 RANK: 11th; QBR+: 109 RANK: 10th

Dan Fouts - TD%+: 105 RANK: 9th(t); INT%+: 103 RANK: 10th; QBR+: 112 RANK: 8th(t)

Roger Staubach - TD%+: 112 RANK: 5th(t); INT%+: 117 RANK: 2nd; QBR+: 122 RANK: 3rd

Peyton Manning - TD%+: 118 RANK: 2nd(t); INT%+: 106 RANK: 9th; QBR+: 118 RANK: 4th(t)

Tom Brady - TD%+: 118 RANK: 2nd(t); INT%+: 114 RANK: 3rd; QBR+: 118 RANK: 4th(t)

So, taking a simple approach and adding each players position in each ranking, we come up with:

Joe Montana: 7+1+2=10
Unitas: 9+7+8=24
Dan Marino: 5+6+7=18
Elway: 11+8+11=30
Tarkenton: 8+5+6=19
Steve Young: 1+4+1=6
Brett Favre: 4+11+10=25
Dan Fouts: 9+10+8=27
Staubach: 5+2+3=10
Manning: 2+9+4=15
Brady:2+3+4=9

It's a pretty simple formula in which whoever has the smaller sum at the end is the QB who fared the best in these categories. As we can see, Brady is number two on that list, which proves that he can hang with hall of famers in the statistical department any day of the week. This comparison doesn't even take into consideration wins and playoff success. In pure numbers he is better than every single QB this guy listed, except for Steve Young (who, surprisingly to me, was simply a stat JUGGERNAUT). You can do further research and come up with different results, but I dare ANYONE on planet earth to compile some sort of evidence that puts Brady behind all those guys, aside from a simple matter of (stupidly misguided) opinion.

Nicely done.

 

[sevengables_2207]

This dude in the Dolphins board is so ridiculously stupid that I'm a little enraged right now, so I thought I'd destroy his argument just for fun. Let's take the ten QBs he put ahead of Brady on the "all time greats" list, (sans Otto Graham, because he played in the 40's and 50's and football was simply a different sport back then) and also include Peyton Manning. Now, I'll rank this QBs by TD%+, INT%+ and QB Rating+. Theses stats measure a QBs efficiency taking into account the league average in the timespan in which they put up certain statistics. So let's say the league average in QB Rating in a given year was 80 and a certain quarterback had an 88 QBR in said year. Now, his QBR+ would be 110, because he was 10% better than the average in that season.

That's how this works. I chose these stats because they provide come context and I also believe they are the best indicators of a QBs efficiency. Everyone else is free to chime in with their own research. So, without further ado, here's the rankings:

Joe Montana - TD%+: 111 RANK: 7th; INT%+: 118 RANK: 1st; QBR+: 123 RANK: 2nd

Johnny U. - TD%+: 105 RANK: 9th(t); INT%+: 108 RANK: 7th; QBR+: 112 RANK: 8th(t)

Dan Marino - TD%+: 112 RANK: 5th(t); INT%+: 109 RANK: 6th; QBR+: 113 RANK: 7th

John Elway - TD%+: 102 RANK: 11th; INT%+: 107 RANK: 8th; QBR+: 105 RANK: 11th

Fran Tarkenton - TD%+: 106 RANK: 8th; INT%+: 112 RANK: 5th; QBR+: 114 RANK: 6th

Steve Young - TD%+: 120 RANK: 1st; INT%+: 113 RANK: 4th; QBR+: 126 RANK: 1st

Brett Favre - TD%+: 113 RANK: 4th; INT%+: 98 RANK: 11th; QBR+: 109 RANK: 10th

Dan Fouts - TD%+: 105 RANK: 9th(t); INT%+: 103 RANK: 10th; QBR+: 112 RANK: 8th(t)

Roger Staubach - TD%+: 112 RANK: 5th(t); INT%+: 117 RANK: 2nd; QBR+: 122 RANK: 3rd

Peyton Manning - TD%+: 118 RANK: 2nd(t); INT%+: 106 RANK: 9th; QBR+: 118 RANK: 4th(t)

Tom Brady - TD%+: 118 RANK: 2nd(t); INT%+: 114 RANK: 3rd; QBR+: 118 RANK: 4th(t)

So, taking a simple approach and adding each players position in each ranking, we come up with:

Joe Montana: 7+1+2=10
Unitas: 9+7+8=24
Dan Marino: 5+6+7=18
Elway: 11+8+11=30
Tarkenton: 8+5+6=19
Steve Young: 1+4+1=6
Brett Favre: 4+11+10=25
Dan Fouts: 9+10+8=27
Staubach: 5+2+3=10
Manning: 2+9+4=15
Brady:2+3+4=9

It's a pretty simple formula in which whoever has the smaller sum at the end is the QB who fared the best in these categories. As we can see, Brady is number two on that list, which proves that he can hang with hall of famers in the statistical department any day of the week. This comparison doesn't even take into consideration wins and playoff success. In pure numbers he is better than every single QB this guy listed, except for Steve Young (who, surprisingly to me, was simply a stat JUGGERNAUT). You can do further research and come up with different results, but I dare ANYONE on planet earth to compile some sort of evidence that puts Brady behind all those guys, aside from a simple matter of (stupidly misguided) opinion.

Excellent job! I knew Young had a phenomenal 1994 season, but did not think he would end up as the best numbers guy here.

 

[Deus Irae]

I found this interesting from thephins message board. It's their view on TB as an mvp candidate and as one of the greatest ever.. I thought it was funny to read through

Tom Brady - Greatest QB in NFL History?

The guy is pimping Henne, who's the worst starting QB in the AFC (just a bit worse than a certain AFCE QB who plays in New Jersey), and belittling Brady.


That says all you really need to know about his football I.Q..

 

[ctpatsfan77]

6The whole matt cassel won 11 games bs

That's because it's harder for them to accept the real meaning of that fact. Matt Cassel really was exactly what the Pats thought he was: a QB capable of playing at a high level who had just never been given the chance.

 

[SVN]

NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

NFL Videos: MVP: Brady or Vick?

its the oline. i wonder if they can name all the pro bowl olinemen the pats have got.

 

[strngplyr]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

I'm not sure I can even tell who they picked when talking about MVP... they all changed their vote 3-4 times over the course of the conversation I think. That was hard to watch.

 

[jsull87]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

NFL Videos: MVP: Brady or Vick?

its the oline. i wonder if they can name all the pro bowl olinemen the pats have got.

think your being a little sensative... our line has played very well but i think warner as much as anyone should know QB's can get their line into good situations and protections just like manning does with his line.

I was glad to hear McCourty mentioned not as a real candidate but just that his great year is getting acknowleged

 

[TB=TD]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

Is Warner the next Faulk? A bitter Ram?

 

[italia44]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

Did anyone notice Brian Billick's mouth and eyebrows start to twitch,just before he had to talk about the Patriots?......too funny.Only Warren Sapp comes close to discussing the "real" story here........Bill Belichick:rocker:

 

[sbpatfan]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

Since people love using the Matt Cassel argument against the Patriots, didn't Kolb lead Philly to a win over 12-3 Atlanta? How can Vick be the most valuable player when his backup can lead the team to a victory over the best team in the conference?

Both Brady and Vick have had amazing years, but I agree with whoever said Brady for MVP but Vick for offensive player of the year.

 

[SVN]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

. our line has played very well but i think warner as much as anyone should know QB's can get their line into good situations and protections just like manning does with his line.

well exactly my point. both vick and ben roethlisberger make their oline look worse than it is.it cant be that the pats oline is physically stronger than any other line in the league but snap counts and changing protections are something QB manages which helps the line which i think vick being out of the game for an yr + has yet to completely come to terms with yet

 

[RodThePat]

Brady has taken a beating in several games this season. Against the Lions he was crushed in every single dropback in the first half and that didn't get to him, they adjusted and blew them out. Vick has a pretty good OL too, but he has no pocket presence and is a running QB, so of course he'll be tackled much more than Brady.

 

[Sciz]

As I'm sure a lot of you know, ProFootballFocus has Brady at #2 (behind Rodgers) for MVP, and he was #4 last week and not in the top-10 for a while. One of the PFFers was on John Rooke's Patriots Playbook on Wednesday, and then on Thursday, Rooke had this to say about PFF:

These guys are absolutely out of their freaking gourds. And they're actually trying to perpetrate this slop on the football-consuming public. Frankly, anybody who has a subscription is wasting their money, because it makes no sense. They are are robbing you blind if you have a subscription. And I'm saying this knowing that they put our link to this broadcast up on their web page today. Okay? Robbing you blind.

EPIC WIN!

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: NFL.com No Huddle:More MVP talk

Since people love using the Matt Cassel argument against the Patriots, didn't Kolb lead Philly to a win over 12-3 Atlanta? How can Vick be the most valuable player when his backup can lead the team to a victory over the best team in the conference?

Both Brady and Vick have had amazing years, but I agree with whoever said Brady for MVP but Vick for offensive player of the year.

I don't agree at all that Vick is offensive player of the year. This is an award where cumulative stats mean everything, and he's missed soon-to-be FIVE games! No way he should draw consideration.

To me the offensive player of the year boils down to three players. Manning, Brady, and Rivers.

Manning will likely end up with around 4800 yards and 33 TDs, 17 INTs.
Rivers will likely end up with 4700 yards and 33 TDs 12 INTs.

The BIG difference here: Rivers averaging 8.7 ypa; Manning averaging 7.0 Colts get slight edge for making the playoffs, but that isn't what this award is about. I have to take Rivers over Manning.

Brady vs. Rivers. Rivers will throw for about 1000 yards more than Brady on a much higher ypa. Brady has made much fewer mistakes, but much fewer yards.

Tie, with Rivers getting OPOY since Brady will win MVP.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Manning should win zero awards this year. He has been downright abysmal in multiple games this year compared to brady and rivers.

 

[Mountain_Commando]

Vick is listed questionable for the final game against the Cowboys...Andy Reid says Vick playing is "a stretch".

I think if he hadn't already, Brady now has MVP locked.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I just watched the video with Warner. Is he always that dense? Or was he just trying to stir conversation? Sounded like a guy who should be stocking shelves in a grocery store ...

 

[strngplyr]

I just watched the video with Warner. Is he always that dense? Or was he just trying to stir conversation? Sounded like a guy who should be stocking shelves in a grocery store ...

..we see what you did there.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I haven't read all 398 posts, but whatever "Vick-Brady" MVP debate ever existed was, IMO, a media creation both to build some suspense around the selection and to hype the Vick "redemption" story (which story I won't believe until Vick has proven that he has truly changed for more than a couple of carefully-orchestrated years).

In any case, whatever debate there may have been came to an end with Vick's performance against the Vikings on Tuesday.

If you're a Pats Fan and superstitious, this all may end up in the category of "Be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it."

The NFL MVP hasn't been on the winning side in an SB since the 1999 season (Warner). In the intervening ten seasons, the League MVP has appeared in half of the big games, losing all five times (Warner 01, Gannon 02, Alexander 05, Brady 07 and P. Manning 09).