“The drafts have improved”

[upstater1]

What I was hoping for was a move up for Fields. Not that Fields has been tearing it up on a regular basis but it would be nice to have a guy who is an athlete with physical talent.

Well, since we'll finish with the 5th pick, we'll have 2 possibilities. We can trade for Fields now if the Bears go Caleb Williams, and if they don't, we can trade for Caleb Williams.

The Patriots finally have some ammunition, which they've never had before.

If you're wondering how the Bills ended up with Josh Allen or the Phins ended up with Jaylen Waddle, it's because they were in the position the Patriots will be in this year.

 

[203Pat]

I mean... We'd be in an even worse spot right now, since we'd have given up more assets and still not had a QB.

This is one case where there was no win scenario in the first round.

True. I just am sick of watching athletic QBs light it up every week while we sit here with a dollar store QB.

 

[mgteich]

This list does not help your argument at all and it's a losing battle for you. Bill has not drafted an impact Pro bowl/All Pro player on defense since Jamie Collins in 2013 and he was a two year wonder. That was 10 years ago. There are no foundational players on this team.

I suggest you watch other teams in the NFL that actually have talented players. The Pats don't have it. Former players are saying it. Analysts are saying it. Fans are saying it. There's only a very small minority that think the team has talent.

Ok, if the experts say that we have an average or worse Defense, so be it.

I strongly disagree. I think that we have a top 10 Defense, and might have had a top 5 if we hadn't lost so many players to injuries (top 4 corners plus Judon). I expect that the same will be the case in 2024, since the only significant free agents on Defense are Dugger, Uche and Jennings

 

[203Pat]

Ok, if the experts say that we have an average or worse Defense, so be it.

I strongly disagree. I think that we have a top 10 Defense, and might have had a top 5 if we hadn't lost so many players to injuries (top 4 corners plus Judon). I expect that the same will be the case in 2024, since the only significant free agents on Defense are Dugger, Uche and Jennings

Yesterday did not look like a top 10 defense.

 

[RIpats88]

Well, since we'll finish with the 5th pick, we'll have 2 possibilities. We can trade for Fields now if the Bears go Caleb Williams, and if they don't, we can trade for Caleb Williams.

The Patriots finally have some ammunition, which they've never had before.

If you're wondering how the Bills ended up with Josh Allen or the Phins ended up with Jaylen Waddle, it's because they were in the position the Patriots will be in this year.

You are being generous assuming bill will change his philosophy and not trade down. Or totally whiff on his picks.

Bill operates on his "value based system" and rates guys differently than the rest of the league.

 

[mgteich]

Well, since we'll finish with the 5th pick, we'll have 2 possibilities. We can trade for Fields now if the Bears go Caleb Williams, and if they don't, we can trade for Caleb Williams.

The Patriots finally have some ammunition, which they've never had before.

If you're wondering how the Bills ended up with Josh Allen or the Phins ended up with Jaylen Waddle, it's because they were in the position the Patriots will be in this year.

The fins are a fine example. They traded lots of top draft picks for players and depend on their young QB.

So, sure, we use our 5th rounder to trade for a WR and also have lots of free agent money.
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It is not at all clear that the 5th pick will get us a franchise QB. We'd probably need to use our 2nd, and then hope that the player worked out. How well did that strategy work out in the Jones draft? Other than the top pick, none of the QB's was worth what was paid.

 

[mgteich]

Yesterday did not look like a top 10 defense.

No, we didn't play lights out. Jones and Jackson were back for the first time. We gave up 20 points to a solid Saints Offense. Carr and Kamara played very well.

Our Offense gave up 14
Our Defense gave up 20

I believe that our Offense gave up more per minute than the Defense (just factor in time of possession).

 

[upstater1]

You are being generous assuming bill will change his philosophy and not trade down. Or totally whiff on his picks.

Bill operates on his "value based system" and rates guys differently than the rest of the league.

Trading back is smart when we're picking with late 1st round picks. Why? Because the second round always really begins at the 2/3rds point of the 1st round. Which is why trading down is always a good option there.

Now go back and look when we've traded in the upper half of the drafts:

Richard Seymour, Jerod Mayo, Ty Warren, Mac Jones.

I see only one trade down there with Christian Gonzalez.

What is evident to me is that WHEN the Patriots are in the thick of the blue-chip talents in the 1st round, they take the blue chip talent they want, and they've had great success doing so.

It's a totally different thing trading back when you're picking late. We've had a lot of busts doing it but also a lot of successes, and when people with high grades drop, we take them or go up and get them: Vince Wilfork, Donte Hightower, Chandler Jones

 

[RIpats88]

Bill's system works when we're picking in playoff years. Why? Because the second round always really begins at the 2/3rds point of the 1st round. Which is why trading down is always a good option there.

Now go back and look when we've traded in the upper half of the drafts:

Richard Seymour, Jerod Mayo, Ty Warren, Mac Jones.

I see only one trade down there with Christian Gonzalez.

What is evident to me is that WHEN the Patriots are in the thick of the blue-chip talents in the 1st round, they take the blue chip talent they want, and they've had great success doing so.

It's a totally different thing trading back when you're picking late. We've had a lot of busts doing it but also a lot of successes, and when people with high grades drop, we take them or go up and get them: Vince Wilfork, Donte Hightower, Chandler Jones

That's still all defensive guys though. Defense isn't our issue.

It's that Bill either has ignored or whiffed on offense. Imagine if we took someone other than Cole strange or Thornton. Or we if took anyone but nkeal harry.

Last great offensive talent he took was Gronk. And that was 14 years ago.

Bills massive ignoring or whiffs on offense is why we are here.

 

[203Pat]

No, we didn't play lights out. Jones and Jackson were back for the first time. We gave up 20 points to a solid Saints Offense. Carr and Kamara played very well.

We gave up 27 points to an offense that even after a good day yesterday is still the 23rd ranked offense in the league and they let off the gas down the stretch. Carr is playing with a bad shoulder and we made Michael Thomas look like it was 2019. The defense started out promising but when you lose your two best players and know that the other side of the ball can't even muster up a point then they are going to struggle.

 

[Pape]

Yesterday did not look like a top 10 defense.

its what happens when you are on the field for 40 minutes.

 

[203Pat]

its what happens when you are on the field for 40 minutes.

Agreed. With the state of the offense this defense stands no chance.

 

[upstater1]

That's still all defensive guys though. Defense isn't our issue.

It's that Bill either has ignored or whiffed on offense. Imagine if we took someone other than Cole strange or Thornton. Or we if took anyone but nkeal harry.

Last great offensive talent he took was Gronk. And that was 14 years ago.

Bills massive ignoring or whiffs on offense is why we are here.

Why is picking defensive guys first an issue?

Those are all-time great Patriots, All-Pros, Hall-of-Fame in Seymour's case. The point is he picks studs in the blue chip positions and he does not trade down. That's the point of our discussion.

As I said repeatedly in these discussions of drafts here, it's fair to criticize Belichick for not taking Pickens and choosing Tyquan instead.

I also said that even there you can use some context. For instance, the first 6 WRs taken before Pickens have all done nothing or busted already. The top guy is Treylon Burks who is a huge disappointment. 6 other GMs made the same mistake Belichick did, and obviously the entire league passed on Pickens; most teams passed on him twice.

I do believe the Patriots planned to take an offensive player in that 2022 draft, but it wasn't going to be a WR. They were going to take an OL. Everyone was shocked to see 9 OL taken in the 1st round. It was much remarked upon. 4 Guards were taken. The Patriots traded down only after the top 6 OL went right before they were choosing.

 

[RIpats88]

Why is picking defensive guys first an issue?

Those are all-time great Patriots, All-Pros, Hall-of-Fame in Seymour's case. The point is he picks studs in the blue chip positions and he does not trade down. That's the point of our discussion.

As I said repeatedly in these discussions of drafts here, it's fair to criticize Belichick for not taking Pickens and choosing Tyquan instead.

I also said that even there you can use some context. For instance, the first 6 WRs taken before Pickens have all done nothing or busted already. The top guy is Treylon Burks who is a huge disappointment. 6 other GMs made the same mistake Belichick did, and obviously the entire league passed on Pickens; most teams passed on him twice.

I do believe the Patriots planned to take an offensive player in that 2022 draft, but it wasn't going to be a WR. They were going to take an OL. Everyone was shocked to see 9 OL taken in the 1st round. It was much remarked upon. 4 Guards were taken. The Patriots traded down only after the top 6 OL went right before they were choosing.

But you are talking about drafts from like 10 years ago to argue for bills philosophy

I'm talking about past 5-6 years.

 

[upstater1]

But you are talking about drafts from like 10 years ago to argue for bills philosophy

I'm talking about past 5-6 years.

Why am I talking about old drafts? Because I was referencing getting to pick very high this year and we've never picked as high as Seymour since 2001!

So that's the comparison. 6 times Belichick has picked in the top half of the draft, and in 5 cases he has NOT traded down. The only time he did he traded down a couple spots when he was assured of getting Broderick Jones, Gonzalez or Forbes.

When the Patriots are in the thick of the draft when there are blue chippers available, they find blue chippers. That's been the record so far.

The biggest problem with the busted drafts of the 2015-2019 period is that the Patriots were drafitng in the last 4 picks, or they had traded away their premium picks, or were fined by the league for Deflategate. They traded back, drafted busts, or else swung for the fences for players like Easley.

 

[Boomer B]

Believe what you choose to believe. Belichick has emphasized Defense in his draft for over 20 years. Personally, I think that our Defense is fine. And yes, Belichick is also fine at acquiring mid-level talent on Defense from free agency. Of course, you left out 2020.
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THE SO-CALLED TERRIBLE DRAFTING - DEFENSE
2020
2 Dugger
2 Uche
3 Jennings

2021
2 Barmore

2022
3 Jones
4 Jones
6 Roberts

2023
1 Gonzalez
2 White
3 Mapu
7 Bolden

Yes, Bill missed sometimes, especially with injured players like Perkins and McGrone.
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There’s another side to the ball that is somewhat important in todays game though…

 

[203Pat]

When are we going to get away from this farce that you can't get good players at the end of round 1? Like there are 20 good players every year and Bill was just damned by his own greatness and could never get in that top 20.

 

[mgteich]

There’s another side to the ball that is somewhat important in todays game though…

agreed

 

[RIpats88]

When are we going to get away from this farce that you can't get good players at the end of round 1? Like there are 20 good players every year and Bill was just damned by his own greatness and could never get in that top 20.

It's the bill can do no wrong crowd

You only can get into this situation where the offense is devoid of talent. Or where in 2021 where you have to pay a premium for guys in FA because your drafts are poor.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The national media took a long time to finally notice, but they just talked about how poorly Bill has done drafting the last 10 years. His only Pro Bowl or All Pro players within the last 10 years have been a punter and a returner.

Pro Bowl or All Pro's from 2000-2012: 16
2013-2023: 3 (two of them were a punter and a returner).

You can also see the correlation of their best picks when either Pioli or Reese were in the house.