Was Eli in the grasp?

PATSNUTme said:

I've seen the play rerun many times. And here is the rule from the NFL Digest of Rules.

In my opinion (biased) he was clearly in the grasp. The play should have been whistled dead as a sack before he escaped and threw the ball which Tyree made the helmet catch. I won't get into the holding that took place during that play which was obvious.

Protection of Passer

1. By interpretation, a pass begins when the passer -- with possession of ball -- starts to bring his hand forward. If ball strikes ground after this action has begun, play is ruled an incomplete pass. If passer loses control of ball prior to his bringing his hand forward, play is ruled a fumble.
2. When a passer is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his arm starts a forward pass. If a defensive player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins, and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player.
3. No defensive player may run into a passer of a legal forward pass after the ball has left his hand (15 yards). The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball.
4. No defensive player who has an unrestricted path to the quarterback may hit him flagrantly in the area of the knee(s) or below when approaching in any direction.
5. Officials are to blow the play dead as soon as the quarterback is clearly in the grasp and control of any tackler, and his safety is in jeopardy.

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I thought a case could have been made to blow the play dead too - but the bottom line is the players can't let a referree's interpretation of a rule decide the game.

If they had him in their grasp - finish the play and bury the QB.

If they can't do that and he scrambles out and completes the pass, more power to him. We've got no one to blame but ourselves.

JoeSixPat said:

I thought a case could have been made to blow the play dead too - but the bottom line is the players can't let a referree's interpretation of a rule decide the game.

If they had him in their grasp - finish the play and bury the QB.

If they can't do that and he scrambles out and completes the pass, more power to him. We've got no one to blame but ourselves.

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Here is what I said in post #21

After seeing the play from different angle now, it could have been either way. From one angle he was clearly in the grasp. From another angle he was still moving and wasn't stopped.

I brought this up after hearing a couple of commentators on ESPN (Golic and another guy). So I posted the rule and asked the question. I was not blaming the ref or making excuses.

That was the play that really says it wasn't meant to be on that night. No other does Manning get away somehow but then throws a wabbler that is tipped by Rodney and Tyree catches on the top of his helmet. And the then lands without it hitting the ground and coming out.

Obi-Wan said:

Yes that play can be challenged and I was hoping they were going to.

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The fumble recovery could not be challenged. You can challenge whether a fumble was recovered in bounds or out of bounds, but you cannot challenge which team recovered a fumble in the field of play.


From the 2007 NFL Official Rule Book:

"Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Forceouts
7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
8. Field goals
9. Inadvertent Whistle"


Also, the key part of the "in the grasp" rule is that the quarterback's safety MUST be "in jeopardy." As Mike Pereira has explained, they will call it when the QB is clearly under control and is in jeopardy of being hit by another defender. It's specifically designed to prevent defenses from getting a free hit on a defenseless quarterback.

The Patriots never had Manning "in control," and he was never in jeopardy of having another defender get a free hit on him.

Was he technically in the grasp of like 3 different defenders? Sure, but the fact still is that they didn't finish the tackle. Eli made a hell of a play, and deserves the credit.

if he had been, he would not have gotten away

I agree with those who say that Eli was not "in the grasp". I do think the refs made a HUGE error by not calling holding on that play. I understand that refs don't want to "decide the game", but by not making that call they did go a long way in deciding the game. We had 2 seperate defenders held blatantly on that play, which mad a huge difference in the outcome of that play and, eventually, the game.

One more point of the Refs: Amani Toomer comitted a blatantly obvious offensive PI in the second quarter that somehow went uncalled.


I don't believe the refs were the reason the Patriots lost this game (or even "a" reason), but not calling the holding on that miracle 3rd down was a brutal blow to the Patriots and had a huge effect on the game.

it seems they did not call much holding this year on anyone.

Oh Thank God for this thread. I've been wanting to say all this ever since these plays happened, but we lost so I knew people would be all over it. Well you know what? I don't care, we deserved to lose, no doubt about that, but that doesn't negate the fact the reffing was garbage (And is the reason I'm seriously thinking about not watching football any more)

So pile on me if you like, but I don't care, I have an opinion and by God I'm going to express it. And here it is:

I said it was a sack as soon as it happened, I was screaming about it like a banshee, but of course no flag. Also Vrabel got held right before that, and the Giants were hitting Tom in the head all night long and not ONE roughing the passer call.

I'm getting sick of the crooked zebras in this league, it's the only league I know where when I watch a big game I'm not sure my team is going to get a fair shake. I don't get that feeling in Baseball, or Basketball, or Hockey, but I do get it in the NFL. Anyone who watched Superbowl XL (Unless you had your Stealer blinders on) knows what I'm talking about.

To me it's a simple matter of logic, why would I continue to invest my heart and soul in to this league if it's not on the up and up? It's like my dad plays the lottery but keeps ranting and raving about how he thinks it's rigged, but he still plays! The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So I keep watching the NFL over and over again and expecting that it'll be fair and impartial.

I KNOW for a fact there are those of you out there who read this and think I'm making excuses for the Pats losing, and that's not it at all. I freely admit that they lost that game, the Giants wanted it more, they played far harder and they deserved to win, but how many games have you seen the Pats play where they didn't really deserve to win (see Baltimore this year) but they did. That's what the reffing robbed us of, a win that we could have had despite ourselves. And I would have taken it.

NovaScotiaPatsFan said:

I'm getting sick of the crooked zebras in this league, it's the only league I know where when I watch a big game I'm not sure my team is going to get a fair shake. I don't get that feeling in Baseball, or Basketball, or Hockey, but I do get it in the NFL. Anyone who watched Superbowl XL (Unless you had your Stealer blinders on) knows what I'm talking about.

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The zebras let them play today..there were no blatant calls that should have been made, for the most part, they swallowed the whistles and let it all go on. This was NOT like the Colts game at all...or SB 40. I did not get that same feeling...at all.
I was thinking about the Woods recobery..but others who watched it said even though he was on top of it..he really did not have possession..Maybe..but that was one big play early.
There was a play where Toomer pushed Hobbs and made the catch and THAT was clearly PI..not called..but Hobbs got his INT a few plays later.
They let a LOT go..and that was what they wished. Brady got forearms at least twice to the head..simple should have been 15...but not done. There was Holding a lot in the game..If you watch the replay..it will be interesting to see how much and if it was both sides that were allowed that. And there was Holding on that play..not called earlier or then..
But if the refs were in the bag, it wouldn't have come down to a miracle escape by Manning..and an incredible catch by Tyree. It's that simple.
About as far as I see one could take this legitimately with any conspiracy theory would be that the league thought the ONLY way the Giants could win was if it was a physical game and that the refs would allow a LOT to go on.
And even if THAt was true..which I think is a far far stretch..it boiled down to one play. Tyree doesn't catch the ball game over.
I DO think there are times when the playing field is somehow tilted by the refs...Colts game..SB 40...but this was not one of them...unless somehow they learned their lessons and did it in a subtle way..But that is even more than a stretch..I didn't see unfairness..only having the refs let a lot go...different refs..calling things closer to the book.different result..didn't happen...too many what/ifs..it's over..

roman_maroney said:

No, unfortunately he wasn't. Our team got punched in the mouth. That game couldn't have been called any better than it was. As a Pats fan for nearly 30 years, I don't know what I am more embarrassed by, the lack of intensity and focus by the organization and team this week, or the fans making excuses for it. I know I'm new to this forum, but it is astounding. The reason there are so many trolls is that we ourselves perpetuate the stereotype of the "Boston sports fan" with stuff like this.

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Well said. No excuses.

That is a good point about the whistles. One of my first questions here. Somebody early on in the season dove into the endzone nobody around him. Touchdown. Easy enough but there was no touchdown signal or a whistle for about 5 seconds. Someone from the other team comes in like a freight train trying to make a play or something. Should have been a late hit except for the fact that there was no whistle. What are they thinking? It's like they thought he had to be down by contact to make it a TD.

Anyways. I think they are late with calling the play dead in general.

mgm79 said:

I hate to break it to you, but there is no PI going on there

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Ummm, what? You have got to be kidding me! No PI! Ball is in the air and he is holding Chambers's arm. No PI???? You have no idea what you are talking about. If that were legal no pass would ever be caught in the NFL. You can't even do that when the ball ISN'T in the air. Every team catches breaks during the course of the game. The Patriots got one there. In the end it doesn't matter because the scoreboard is all that matters which was the whole point of my post.

pao

Theplayer said:

dude, that play wasn't even close to PI..learn the game son

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Learn the game? Looks like you are the one that needs to learn the game. Take a look at Article 5 (b) of the rule book and Article 7. Then come back and tell me you still don't think it's PI.

pao

pao said:

Ummm, what? You have got to be kidding me! No PI! Ball is in the air and he is holding Chambers's arm. No PI???? You have no idea what you are talking about. If that were legal no pass would ever be caught in the NFL. You can't even do that when the ball ISN'T in the air. Every team catches breaks during the course of the game. The Patriots got one there. In the end it doesn't matter because the scoreboard is all that matters which was the whole point of my post.

pao

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I suggest you take a closer look at the picture, Asante is not holding his arm his hands are positioned to catch the ball. He moved around Chambers cleanly and made an interception on that play.

mgm79 said:

I suggest you take a closer look at the picture, Asante is not holding his arm his hands are positioned to catch the ball. He moved around Chambers cleanly and made an interception on that play.

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This is the funniest thing I have read this week. Even if what Samuel did to GET to that position (it wasn't, he went THROUGH the receiver) he is still holding Chambers with his left hand. Hands positioned to catch the ball? Only if you catch with the back of your hand. LOL. Dang, talk about homer glasses.

pao

PATSNUTme said:

I've seen the play rerun many times. And here is the rule from the NFL Digest of Rules.

In my opinion (biased) he was clearly in the grasp. The play should have been whistled dead as a sack before he escaped and threw the ball which Tyree made the helmet catch. I won't get into the holding that took place during that play which was obvious.

Protection of Passer

1. By interpretation, a pass begins when the passer -- with possession of ball -- starts to bring his hand forward. If ball strikes ground after this action has begun, play is ruled an incomplete pass. If passer loses control of ball prior to his bringing his hand forward, play is ruled a fumble.
2. When a passer is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his arm starts a forward pass. If a defensive player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins, and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player.
3. No defensive player may run into a passer of a legal forward pass after the ball has left his hand (15 yards). The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball.
4. No defensive player who has an unrestricted path to the quarterback may hit him flagrantly in the area of the knee(s) or below when approaching in any direction.
5. Officials are to blow the play dead as soon as the quarterback is clearly in the grasp and control of any tackler, and his safety is in jeopardy.

Click to expand...

The Gianst offense really should just thank God. I never seen a team get so lucky. Not only were they lucky they got away with many.

I say no to in the grasp but yes to holding on "the play".

There have already been few posts about holding. The Patriots players should have done one of two things. First off the defensive lineman should have been (politely) making their case earlier so perhaps the referees would have positioned themselves to look at the Giants offensive line. Otherwise the Patriots offensive line should have been holding the Giants defensive line. They should have at least tried to in order to keep Tom Brady on his feet.

Obviously not, as he got away.

pao said:

This is the funniest thing I have read this week. Even if what Samuel did to GET to that position (it wasn't, he went THROUGH the receiver) he is still holding Chambers with his left hand. Hands positioned to catch the ball? Only if you catch with the back of your hand. LOL. Dang, talk about homer glasses.

pao

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Ok, I suspect you're trolling at this point but I'll make one more post and then let it die. You can see Asante's thumb pointing up in the picture around the lightning bolt on chambers shoulder and the back of his hand is on the inside of Chambers forearm waiting for the ball.

Like you pointed out yourself:
"Hands positioned to catch the ball? Only if you catch with the back of your hand "

Asante didn't make the catch w/ the back of his hand right?

Jeez, these Chargers fans are like mosquitos. I skip a few pages and somebody's talking about Chambers.

Anyway, the refs have not been calling the "in the grasp" tightly as they used to. It's actually good, since it was getting near to touch football a few years ago.

Kinda sucks for the defense, since they can't slam the QB to the ground or they'll get a roughness, so they have to gently bear hug him. Probably helps if you growl and act like you'll body slam him, that'll get the whistle.

To summarize, in the grasp the way they called it a few years ago, but not the way they consistently call it today.

I guess the refs are saying "you're three hundred pounds, if he was in your grasp, why is he running towards the end zone"?