August 19th hearing transcript now available

BradyFTW! said:

But this is why I don't get these claims that Berman's hands are tied even if he wants to rule for Brady. He's made it abundantly clear that he can rule for Brady, and he's explicitly telegraphed the means by which he will probably do so if he elects to go that route. The arrogance of the NFL in maintaining that he can't do that even after he's pointed out exactly how he can would almost be impressive, if it weren't so weirdly ****ish.

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We didn't have to hear this crap about AdP, or about Hardy, or even about Bountygate, yet we're hearing it now. It's out because the league wanted it out.

Deus Irae said:

We didn't have to hear this crap about AdP, or about Hardy, or even about Bountygate, yet we're hearing it now. It's out because the league wanted it out.

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but why

VectorPrime said:

but why

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Because the NFL didn't have to mount a PR campaign in those cases. Nobody was going to take the side of a wife beater or a child abuser, even if their right to a fair appeal was steamrolled.

I think the league figured the same would be in play here since 31 fanbases just don't like the Pats and Brady. But as it turns out, there's a good number of people who think due process is more important than a few maybe-slightly-deflated footballs.

ctpatsfan77 said:

For those wondering, "If not X then not Y" doesn't, by itself, establish "Either X and Y are both true or both false."

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I took the gamble that people didn't need this pointed out, but thanks for the digression anyway. It probably was useful to somebody.

Deus Irae said:

We didn't have to hear this crap about AdP, or about Hardy, or even about Bountygate, yet we're hearing it now. It's out because the league wanted it out.

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If they're publicly daring Berman to rule for Brady/NFLPA, that's probably a good thing for us.

BradyFTW! said:

Because the NFL didn't have to mount a PR campaign in those cases. Nobody was going to take the side of a wife beater or a child abuser, even if their right to a fair appeal was steamrolled.

I think the league figured the same would be in play here since 31 fanbases just don't like the Pats and Brady. But as it turns out, there's a good number of people who think due process is more important than a few maybe-slightly-deflated footballs.

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It goes beyond inadequate due process issues, this is a blatant smear campaign. Sadly, it doesn't appear to be bothering as many people as it should. It would be like after the Duke Lacrosse scandal people saying "well, those spoiled little rich pricks deserved to be wrongfully accused and probably were rapists anyway."

If the fans are that spiteful and petty and the league is this corrupt, maybe the NFL and it's fans deserve each other.

YOUGOTMOSSED said:

It goes beyond inadequate due process issues, this is a blatant smear campaign. Sadly, it doesn't appear to be bothering as many people as it should. It would be like after the Duke Lacrosse scandal people saying "well, those spoiled little rich pricks deserved to be wrongfully accused and probably were rapists anyway."

If the fans are that spiteful and petty and the league is this corrupt, maybe the NFL and it's fans deserve each other.

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This is just a microcosm of how America views due process. If the country, as a whole, is wildly offended by something that someone did (such as a heinous crime), due process immediately goes out the window in the public's view. It's the same thing here. People hate the Pats and Brady so they don't really care for due process or the fact that Brady should have his day in court even though these fans would wholly support it if it was one of their beloved players getting railroaded.

KontradictioN said:

This is just a microcosm of how America views due process. If the country, as a whole, is wildly offended by something that someone did (such as a heinous crime), due process immediately goes out the window in the public's view. It's the same thing here. People hate the Pats and Brady so they don't really care for due process or the fact that Brady should have his day in court even though these fans would wholly support it if it was one of their beloved players getting railroaded.

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The Mob lynches.

BradyFTW! said:

That's been my thought on what I think/hope/wish he's trying to do. Use the exclusion of Pash as the undisputed fact which itself vacates the award. The NFL can't go back and rewrite history on that. They can't fix it. If you vacate on that basis, I can't imagine an appeals court would overturn it. So that's where you really plant the flag in your argument, and say "I'm vacating the suspension first and foremost because of this" (and potentially a bunch of other things as well, but most importantly this).

Then use the rest of the decision to blast Goodell on the various other ways in which he's an incompetent, corrupt ****up. Maybe even affirm the "general awareness, which was the standard set forth in the Wells Report that was the sole basis for the punishment" argument if you want to ensure that another round of arbitration would pretty much have to go in Brady's favor. Or not, whatever, at that point it's no longer Berman's problem.

But this is why I don't get these claims that Berman's hands are tied even if he wants to rule for Brady. He's made it abundantly clear that he can rule for Brady, and he's explicitly telegraphed the means by which he will probably do so if he elects to go that route. The arrogance of the NFL in maintaining that he can't do that even after he's pointed out exactly how he can would almost be impressive, if it weren't so weirdly ****ish.

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Nash did say that the PA had been given opportunity to renew their request to speak to pash after speaking to wells by the commisionner but they never did. The judge didnt seem say anything about that .But its hard to know in transcripts the mood and tone. From reading this alone it seems nash gave a lot of answers and some of them even the judge seem to say "okay got it"

KontradictioN said:

This is just a microcosm of how America views due process. If the country, as a whole, is wildly offended by something that someone did (such as a heinous crime), due process immediately goes out the window in the public's view. It's the same thing here. People hate the Pats and Brady so they don't really care for due process or the fact that Brady should have his day in court even though these fans would wholly support it if it was one of their beloved players getting railroaded.

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The "crime" here is the blatant (and comically sloppy) frame job the 1/2 wits at the league office did. If the majority of people are really okay with this simply because of jealous resentment against the Patriots then American society has become more degenerate than I could have imagined.

Then again, we're talking about a society where "Deez Nuts" is 3rd in the polling right behind Trump and Clinton (and may be the least ridiculous of the 3).

I would prefer Deez Nuts be Commissioner over Goodell.

Deus Irae said:

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you, and I wish I weren't doing so. I think we saw during the CBA negotiations that the players have neither the brains nor the balls to follow through.

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Even worse is that the players won't see it as the power being abused. Most of them will just say "Ha, he DID it!" instead of really seeing it for what it is.

Then again I guess you did just say they have no brains.

mr wallach back on the job on twitter

https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL

apparently, he was banging these out at a cigar bar at 1 am after I went to sleep last night, and he's already back at it.

Rob0729 said:

It is becoming more and more apparent that the NFL outsmarted themselves. They thought they would out maneuver the NFLPA and pick the venue that they thought would be more sympathetic to the NFL. What they got was a judge who makes Judge Doty look like a Roger Goodell homer.

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I wrote several lengthy posts out here a few weeks ago, before Judge Berman even opened his mouth on this case, giving my read on Richard Berman, based on his background and my being around folks in the legal and judicial communities in NYC for 25 years [a couple of ADA's, several Federal Prosecutors, many Civil and Criminal Defense Attorneys and some high profile folks to whom I won't allude here].

Judge Berman has not only lived up to my predictions, but, frankly, has exceeded my expectations. He is exactly the guy I thought he was and, even more, the guy I hoped he was.

A word of caution: this does not mean his ruling in this case is a slam dunk. He keeps pointing out that there are "strengths and weaknesses" on both sides and that he thinks the two parties should reach a Settlement.

I read through the transcript at a top level, i.e., not a detailed, word-by-word analysis. There are several places where Judge Berman allows Nash's statements to go unchallenged. Page 55 is a particular example where Nash points out that a passage cited by Kessler earlier in the proceedengs as evidence that the NFL violated the Notice provision is actually broader than Kessler implied and includes the possibility of "...other forms of discipline, including higher fines and suspension..." Berman doesn't challenge that. However, that is when Berman takes the discussion in the direction of "why four games?" and how many were attributable to "ball tampering" and how many to "failure to cooperate?" And where he is almost mocking the entire process followed by the NFL. It seems to me that Judge Berman is wrestling with the underlying fairness issues here as they relate to the whole process and whether they constitute grounds for vacating the ruling.

In other words, I don't think his mind is made up, but his fundamental sense of what is "just" is offended by how the NFL has behaved and he is trying to find ways (the Pash references being particular examples) to rule on behalf of Brady, but he is far from decided in that regard.

PatsFanSince74 said:

However, that is when Berman takes the discussion in the direction of "why four games?" and how many were attributable to "ball tampering" and how many to "failure to cooperate?" And where he is almost mocking the entire process followed by the NFL. It seems to me that Judge Berman is wrestling with the underlying fairness issues here as they relate to the whole process and whether they constitute grounds for vacating the ruling.

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My first impression when that was tweeted was that Berman was looking to possibly vacate the tampering as baseless but permit the failure to cooperate penalty. I think it was fortunate that Nash didn't give him a clear-cut accounting of how many games were which.

turkeyneck said:

My first impression when that was tweeted was that Berman was looking to possibly vacate the tampering as baseless but permit the failure to cooperate penalty. I think it was fortunate that Nash didn't give him a clear-cut accounting of how many games were which.

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I said in a previous thread that I believe that if Berman ends up deciding to vacate the decision, one of his stipulations might be that the commissioner must explicitly separate penalties so that they apply to very specific incidents in which the NFL alleges Brady has broken NFL policies, because the way Vincent and Goodell conspired to rule based on a broad impression of "conduct detrimental" that includes some combination of tampering and non-cooperation (especially without respect to any particular incident of tampering) gave Brady no real mechanism to defend himself against each of those individual accusation and thus fight any part of the penalty in the appeal. That would explain why Berman is focusing so much on how much of the suspension is attributable to each specific action, and also why he keeps bringing up whether or not the Wells report and Goodell's decision distinguish between Brady's culpability in the AFC Championship Game tampering accusation (the only game for which the NFL even claims to have physical evidence of tampering) and an alleged ball deflation scheme that lasted more than a full season (as the NFL's claims about texts dating back to May 2014 would indicate).

Elijah said:

But also that it's the legal standard...

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Yes, but that judges do not necessarily agree with that standard. I think what he is saying is he can if he wants to.

BradyFTW! said:

I think the league figured the same would be in play here since 31 fanbases just don't like the Pats and Brady. But as it turns out, there's a good number of people who think due process is more important than a few maybe-slightly-deflated footballs.

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I know we have pockets of people who see this, but I would think most of the other 31 fan bases are either convinced of Brady's guilt or just think something was done.

We'll need a deeper dive and mainstream media (TV) to shine the light on stingate.

RelocatedPatFan said:

I know we have pockets of people who see this, but I would think most of the other 31 fan bases are either convinced of Brady's guilt or just think something was done.

We'll need a deeper dive and mainstream media (TV) to shine the light on stingate.

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Go to Chiefsplanet.com and read their threads on the topic. You'll find a sea change in opinions. I'm not going to check every forum in the U.S., but that's one example of people figuring it out.

They have some total tools as fans. Half of them would be banned within an hour here.