***THE OFFICIAL 2014 New England Patriots training camp thread***

The Scrizz said:

You should have just stopped right here. ONE measure of his speed. One. He's been timed once, it wasn't good, but that's his speed.

I'm a baseball stats geek and we would refer to that as a small sample size. If it was even a sample. But it isn't. It's once. One time. One single time.

And use that one time to support 100 posts.

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Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Speed appears to be a negative for this player.
That is the only point that has been made.
While other people want to take that fact and make it seem like I am saying many things other than I am saying, that does not make it so.
Of course you are also taking out of context because it was a response to 'he isn't slow'. You are using it as if I said his single 40 time proves something where, as you know, I was saying that is all we have to go on, so it is something to be concerned about. If it is wrong it is wrong, I am making no decision based on it, other than calling it a piece of evidence to consider.
I would suggest that you find a statement that I actually made. My words. And tell me what you disagree with.

AndyJohnson said:

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Speed appears to be a negative for this player.
That is the only point that has been made.
While other people want to take that fact and make it seem like I am saying many things other than I am saying, that does not make it so.
Of course you are also taking out of context because it was a response to 'he isn't slow'. You are using it as if I said his single 40 time proves something where, as you know, I was saying that is all we have to go on, so it is something to be concerned about. If it is wrong it is wrong, I am making no decision based on it, other than calling it a piece of evidence to consider.
I would suggest that you find a statement that I actually made. My words. And tell me what you disagree with.

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If all you have to go on is one meaningless run then you are going on nothing you are talking out of your ass to hear yourself speak. Or watch yourself type. Whatever.

I have no dog in the Butler will or won't make the roster debate. I agree that calling him a lock at this point is a reach. But you're building your argument on sand.

One run is nothing, therefore you have nothing to go on, and nothing to be concerned about. You were a football player watch him play football. Zero data can't be construed as positive or negative. Of course if you want to be literal and say we have data, then I will agree. We have a sample size of 1 and a confidence level plus or minus infinity.

Well, this thread sucks now.

The Scrizz said:

If all you have to go on is one meaningless run then you are going on nothing you are talking out of your ass to hear yourself speak. Or watch yourself type. Whatever.

I have no dog in the Butler will or won't make the roster debate. I agree that calling him a lock at this point is a reach. But you're building your argument on sand.

One run is nothing, therefore you have nothing to go on, and nothing to be concerned about. You were a football player watch him play football. Zero data can't be construed as positive or negative. Of course if you want to be literal and say we have data, then I will agree. We have a sample size of 1 and a confidence level plus or minus infinity.

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I am not building an argument, I am discussing the player.

I'm curious though, earlier you tried to be funny by throwing an insult at me that you don't read my posts, now you are trying to tell me what I am saying.

Folks. Enough of the Speed debate. It's only circular arguing at this point.

strngplyr said:

Well, this thread sucks now.

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Agreed.

End the Great Speed Debate. At this point, it's been more than played out.

AzPatsFan said:

Fans are strange ducks. They obsess in finding a great reserve TE behind Gronk, but nary a peep do they make, regarding the reserve for McCourty at S1.

No one thinks for a second, or even proposes that the likely reserve S1 is likely Logan Ryan. All the other candidates resemble in size, or speed or degree to a SS. Only Ryan looks like, is built like, or has the wheels of a FS resembling Devin.The only other possibility is A

Who is McCourty's backup?

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We've been talking about the safety position being only 1 player deep all offseason.

Deus Irae said:

We've been talking about the safety position being only 1 player deep all offseason.

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Agreed, Devin's backup specifically may be an underspoken point, but not a single person has forgotten that he's the only true safety on the roster right now.

strngplyr said:

Agreed, Devin's backup specifically may be an underspoken point, but not a single person has forgotten that he's the only true safety on the roster right now.

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I haven't seen Harmon on ST's or playing any other positions.

Andy, after reading the last 3 pages, allow me to try and distill the sticking points between you and all those who are disagreeing with you. In your line of argument, you make 2 major points

1. Fans are prematurely giving a roster spot to Malcolm Butler
2. Butler is a player you have deemed to be too short and too slow to ever to be likely to survive in the NFL as a CB

What the people who disagree with are saying can be distilled as follows:

1. Butler is no shorter than any of the Pats current CB's no named Browner.
2. His pro day 40 times are NOT being reflected in his level of play all through TC

While I do agree with you to some degree that its much too early to anoint Butler as this year's UDFA phenom and assign him a likely roster spot; I do believe that the speed issue, which you are basing solely on his pro day time, is NOT reflective of his actual play on the field. CLEARLY he has been able to keep up with players who you would assume would be much faster, if 4.6 was his true speed.

I have yet to be at a TC practice where Malcolm Butler hadn't popped at least once, and believe me there were times where I wish it wasn't happening since I viewed him and "just short CB". I didn't know about speed issue until I read the last 3 pages.

My opinion now is that if he continues to improve at the rate he's started camp, there will be no way that he'll ever get to the PS, especially with CB starved teams like the Cowboys and Jets around.

strngplyr said:

Agreed, Devin's backup specifically may be an underspoken point, but not a single person has forgotten that he's the only true safety on the roster right now.

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Juslt my opinion, but Devlin has looked great catching the ball and running routes. His hands are amazing for a kid who played DE in college. Like I said in my practice report, Devlin is someone that all the QB's seemed to be comfortable throwing to. He's not going to make anyone forget Kevin Faulk, but running Hback and move TE routes doesn't seem to be a problem

strngplyr said:

Agreed, Devin's backup specifically may be an underspoken point, but not a single person has forgotten that he's the only true safety on the roster right now.

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Wilson, Chung, and Harmon are definitely true safeties. We just don't know if they're *good* safeties yet. Well, except Chung. We know he isn't good. But the other two are still up in the air, which isn't ideal but could be worse.

patfanken said:

Juslt my opinion, but Devlin has looked great catching the ball and running routes. His hands are amazing for a kid who played DE in college. Like I said in my practice report, Devlin is someone that all the QB's seemed to be comfortable throwing to. He's not going to make anyone forget Kevin Faulk, but running Hback and move TE routes doesn't seem to be a problem

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I think they might carry Two TEs and use Devlin and Tackles to fill out the role. They would definitely be looking for a practice squad TE though.
If we are carrying 3 QBs and 6-7 WRs counting Slater then something has to give elsewhere.

Seems crazy to think with Gronks health we would go with just two but I don't see the value in the other TEs compared to the extra QB and WE.

All this is to say that I love me some Devlin and trust him in a variety of roles.

patfanken said:

Andy, after reading the last 3 pages, allow me to try and distill the sticking points between you and all those who are disagreeing with you. In your line of argument, you make 2 major points

1. Fans are prematurely giving a roster spot to Malcolm Butler
2. Butler is a player you have deemed to be too short and too slo w ever to be likely to survive in the NFL as a CB

What the people who disagree with are saying can be distilled as follows:

1. Butler is no shorter than any of the Pats current CB's no named Browner.
2. His pro day 40 times are NOT being reflected in his level of play all through TC

While I do agree with you to some degree that its much too early to anoint Butler as this year's UDFA phenom and assign him a likely roster spot; I do believe that the speed issue, which you are basing solely on his pro day time, is NOT reflective of his actual play on the field. CLEARLY he has been able to keep up with players who you would assume would be much faster, if 4.6 was his true speed.

I have yet to be at a TC practice where Malcolm Butler hadn't popped at least once, and believe me there were times where I wish it wasn't happening since I viewed him and "just short CB". I didn't know about speed issue until I read the last 3 pages.

My opinion now is that if he continues to improve at the rate he's started camp, there will be no way that he'll ever get to the PS, especially with CB starved teams like the Cowboys and Jets around.

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Not quite.
My points are
1) He is not a lock to make the roster
2) He is not ahead of Dennard, Ryan and Arrington.

While discussing that,the following points came up.

My HESITATION to jump blindly on to the bandwagon is because I am not as sold on his performance vs Washington as others, because I think he was targetted a lot and that could be a harbinger that he was allowing players to get open, but recovered nicely, which could lead to disaster against better players. I would have been more impressed if his coverage led to throws to other receivers. And that its just one game.
As far as his speed, it is a documented issue that is a reason for caution in proclaiming 1 or 2.

The size thing was an error, but I only used it to illustrate a deficiency that can be overcome but is still a deficiency.

As far as your comments, 'popping at least once' isn't what I think is needed, but consistency is. The talk coming from camp was from his Ints. but we all know that consistent coverage is much more important. That description rings of a guy who is almost good enough but never quite makes it, which is my guess right now where Butler will end up. But, the entire point was that it is too soon to be passing judgment.

OTAs & summer camp are about teaching, practicing and then putting into practice what's been learned. Let's see what the less experienced players are able to actualize before drawing strong conclusions.

shmessy said:

BB never locks himself in. A few games of flying yellow carpets may precipitate a change. We are talking about one of the NFL's greatest defensive innovators and improvisors.

The last two Patriots Secondary Players who have beaten up and tangled with Patriots WRs in TC as much as Browner were Merriwether (bad thing) and Harrison (good thing). Both Safeties.

Browner has a Safety body and a Safety mentality. That is not necessarily a good thing for a CB in 2014 with the new Points of Emphasis.

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Browner doesn't play well in space. Why that is, I honestly couldn't tell you. He just doesn't. His speciality is getting his mitts on a WR and physical driving him to the turf off the LOS. That's why he'll stay at CB. Ryan has better range which would make him better suited to playing safety than Browner.

patfanken said:

Juslt my opinion, but Devlin has looked great catching the ball and running routes. His hands are amazing for a kid who played DE in college. Like I said in my practice report, Devlin is someone that all the QB's seemed to be comfortable throwing to. He's not going to make anyone forget Kevin Faulk, but running Hback and move TE routes doesn't seem to be a problem

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In this instance, you're mixing "Devin" (McC) up with James Devlin, Ken.

EDIT: although your analysis on the TE/H-back subject is spot on and still appreciated very much

BradyFTW! said:

Wilson, Chung, and Harmon are definitely true safeties. We just don't know if they're *good* safeties yet. Well, except Chung. We know he isn't good. But the other two are still up in the air, which isn't ideal but could be worse.

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Thomas is flying under the radar a bit as he was injured and only recently started practicing. He actually played more S than CB at Georgia Tech last year. Also has good ST capabilites, so it will be interesting to watch him tomorrow. Great competition at DB.

BradyFTW! said:

Wilson, Chung, and Harmon are definitely true safeties. We just don't know if they're *good* safeties yet. Well, except Chung. We know he isn't good. But the other two are still up in the air, which isn't ideal but could be worse.

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Yeah, I know it's not going to put many minds at ease, but I agree with you. Our safeties are who they are. McCourty, Harmon, Wilson, Chung, and Ebner---with maybe a sprinkling of Ryan/Arrington moving around as CB to the safety location from time to time like last year.

I think some of these projections (although meant in a fun and light-hearted way) of moving certain players to another position is nothing more than fantastical passing of time. We'll have to see how it plays out. In the meantime, it's been a fun way to speculate and pass the time.

Mack Herron said:

Thomas is flying under the radar a bit as he was injured and only recently started practicing. He actually played more S than CB at Georgia Tech last year. Also has good ST capabilites, so it will be interesting to watch him tomorrow. Great competition at DB.

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Oh, Thomas is back now. Thanks for passing the info on, Mack. I must've missed it in the reports (or just didn't pay attention). I think we're all looking forward to seeing if anything is there or not.

BradyFTW! said:

Wilson, Chung, and Harmon are definitely true safeties. We just don't know if they're *good* safeties yet. Well, except Chung. We know he isn't good. But the other two are still up in the air, which isn't ideal but could be worse.

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The jury has almost deliberated on Wilson too. They're just arguing with the one guy in the room that believes Wilson can overcome the mental errors. We'll see, but I've pretty much given up on him at this point. If he breaks into the starting line-up, it's a pleasant surprise to me.