***THE OFFICIAL 2014 New England Patriots training camp thread***

[Ring 6]

When did 5'11 become short for a CB? Now you're just making stuff up.

Nope just making a mistake abou this height, which I acknowledged.

 

[BradyFTW!]

My God, do you read what I write?
Where did I say his 40 time rules him out of playing in the NFL?
Where do I say he lacks the athleticism to play in the NFL?
I have made NUMEROUS posts stating that this is a weakness and all players have weaknesses and this is one he must overcome.
I have also said over and over that he has not played enough to determine if he has the skillset to make it as an NFL corner.

I disagree that he has STRONGLY proven anything. I was not as impressed with his play vs Washington as you, and even if I were, its not enough to make him a lock or put him ahead of Dennard.

Yes, I read pretty much every word that you've posted today re: Malcolm Butler. And I wish I hadn't because it's all uninformed, aggressively opinionated garbage, even worse than what you usually post.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I read pretty much every word that you've posted today re: Malcolm Butler. And I wish I hadn't because it's all uninformed, aggressively opinionated garbage, even worse than what you usually post.

Then don't.
How is saying that I think being thrown at a lot is not an impressive job at corner, or saying i'm concerned about a players weakness or saying that I want to see more of him before I consider him a lock or put him ahead of Dennard 'aggressively opinionated'?
Please explain which assessment I have toward this player which is 'aggressively opinionated'.
By the way, aren't we discussing opinions, so how is one side opinionated and the other something else?
Interesting that I have not made any definitive judgment other than I am not jumping to conclusions in response to people calling him a lock or that he has passed Dennard, Ryan and Arrignton, and my wait and see, while having reservations is opinionated?

 

[shmessy]

5'11 is not small compared to other CBs and yes, Butler ran a slow 40 time at his pro-day....big deal, he doesn't look slow on the field. I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most.

I had 2nd row seats in the 400's of fedex last Thursday night - - not great seats if you want to see line play, but great seats if you want to watch coverages.

All night long (and he was in most of the game) Butler was isolated outside on his own against the fly WR. There is no more pressured defensive position on the field. It was obvious that BB was putting him under the microscope. It was also obvious that he was in the jock of every WR who was isolated with him. One play, Logan Ryan in the 1st qtr took over covering Robinson and Robinson practically ran Ryan off a cliff with a head feint that resulted in an easy TD. Next time down the field they tried the same play and Butler owned the coverage and Robinson had to bat the ball away from what was a sure Butler interception.

Andy, it wasn't one or two plays. It was all night long. There were two passes completed on him. One was as tight a miracle rollout/sideline dive in tight coverage as you will ever see in an NFL game.

Butler also made a good hard tackle of a returner on a kickoff.

So, when you write in that post above "I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most." - - while leaning on his height (which you now admit was in error) and his 40 time, it is not to be taken too seriously.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Interesting that I have not made any definitive judgment other than I am not jumping to conclusions in response to people calling him a lock or that he has passed Dennard, Ryan and Arrignton, and my wait and see, while having reservations is opinionated?

If you were actually doing that, then you'd have a point. Then again, if you were actually doing that, you wouldn't have half of the posters on this forum calling you out for making garbage arguments right now. But that isn't what you're doing, no matter how much you'd like to call it that. You said he's slow. All evidence that we have from practice and preseason suggests pretty strongly that he's not slow, which means that most likely either:

1) he somehow became significantly faster between his pro day and now
2) his pro day was not indicative of his actual speed

You've steadfastly maintained that 2 just isn't an option here. He ran a slow 40 at his pro day, therefore he's slow, therefore speed is a deficiency that he'll have to work out some way to succeed. As I and many others have pointed out, it's just stupid to declare a guy slow because of a kinda-bad 40 time--this isn't Brandon Spikes running 3 tenths of second slower than you'd expect, if he'd run one tenth of a second faster this would be a complete non-issue--while ignoring the fact that he's consistently keeping up with 4.3 receivers in practice and preseason.

Frankly, if this isn't your version of "aggressively opinionated", then that's.... really something.

Then don't.

Hey, you don't have to tell me that I should probably have you on ignore. I already know that; and pretty much every time I read your posts I wonder why I bother. But it's a new season, so I figured I should clean out my ignore list.

 

[shmessy]

No I did not.
This is the problem, you are arguing against what you want to argue against rather than what I am saying.
I said he is slow for a corner. I explained in great detail how that is a weakness, but one that can be overcome with other strengths. I never said he was too slow to play in the NFL.

First 4 words of post #1584. "Yes, Butler is slow"

You then followed it up on the next line with "It has been a topic of conversation on this board this summer that his 40 times were awful for a corner.

But, you clearly wrote that he is slow. It is there.

Look, Andy, you're having a bad day here today - - take a breath, gather yourself. I agree that Butler still has much to prove and that there is no way I see him ahead of the top 5 CB's.

But, word to the wise, you have to stop making silly posting errors here when people can just go back a couple of pages and read what you wrote early on.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I had 2nd row seats in the 400's of fedex last Thursday night - - not great seats if you want to see line play, but great seats if you want to watch coverages.

All night long (and he was in most of the game) Butler was isolated outside on his own against the fly WR. There is no more pressured defensive position on the field. It was obvious that BB was putting him under the microscope. It was also obvious that he was in the jock of every WR who was isolated with him. One play, Logan Ryan in the 1st qtr took over covering Robinson and Robinson practically ran Ryan off a cliff with a head feint that resulted in an easy TD. Next time down the field they tried the same play and Butler owned the coverage and Robinson had to bat the ball away from what was a sure Butler interception.

Andy, it wasn't one or two plays. It was all night long. There were two passes completed on him. One was as tight a miracle rollout/sideline dive in tight coverage as you will ever see in an NFL game.

Butler also made a good hard tackle of a returner on a kickoff.

So, when you write in that post above "I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most." - - while leaning on his height (which you now admit was in error) and his 40 time, it is not to be taken too seriously.

Butler also had perfect position to force his man out of bounds on what was almost a touchdown catch. That was pretty impressive, even if it was too close to a TD for my liking. Bottom line: if you can consistently stay with 4.3 receivers like Aldrick Robinson and Josh Boyce in man coverage, speed just isn't an issue for you.

It's obviously still too early for us to know if he'll stick, but I suspect that Belichick was doing exactly what you suggest: putting Butler on an island against the fastest guy on the Redskins and seeing how he would handle himself against elite NFL speed. And he was more than fine.

 

[Ring 6]

I had 2nd row seats in the 400's of fedex last Thursday night - - not great seats if you want to see line play, but great seats if you want to watch coverages.

All night long (and he was in most of the game) Butler was isolated outside on his own against the fly WR. There is no more pressured defensive position on the field. It was obvious that BB was putting him under the microscope. It was also obvious that he was in the jock of every WR who was isolated with him. One play, Logan Ryan in the 1st qtr took over covering Robinson and Robinson practically ran Ryan off a cliff with a head feint that resulted in an easy TD. Next time down the field they tried the same play and Butler owned the coverage and Robinson had to bat the ball away from what was a sure Butler interception.

Andy, it wasn't one or two plays. It was all night long. There were two passes completed on him. One was as tight a miracle rollout/sideline dive in tight coverage as you will ever see in an NFL game.

Butler also made a good hard tackle of a returner on a kickoff.

So, when you write in that post above "I am not sure why you are infatuated with stats when it is performance on the field that matters most." - - while leaning on his height (which you now admit was in error) and his 40 time, it is not to be taken too seriously.

You really need to read my comments not the bastardized version in response by people who are offended that I am not president of the Butler fan club.

I AM basing my opinion on play on the football field, which is why I am not close to a conclusion on this player.
Its fine that you were impressed, I was not as impressed. Is there something wrong with disagreeing on how well a player played, or having different criteria? Surely you don't think that if we both watch a player play, your opinion of how he played is better than mine. Or do you?

If you are saying he is a lock. I disagree.
If you are saying he is ahead of Dennard and Ryan and Arrington, I disagree.
Those were the points raised in this thread.

If we are discussing his prospects of making the team, I see his speed as a challenge. He may overcome that, but it is definitely a disadvantage. I have not concluded my opinion of this player and whether he will make the roster. Should I have at this point?

The part you put in quotes was not my words, by the way.

 

[Ring 6]

First 4 words of post #1584. "Yes, Butler is slow"

You then followed it up on the next line with "It has been a topic of conversation on this board this summer that his 40 times were awful for a corner.

But, you clearly wrote that he is slow. It is there.

Look, Andy, you're having a bad day here today - - take a breath, gather yourself. I agree that Butler still has much to prove and that there is no way I see him ahead of the top 5 CB's.

But, word to the wise, you have to stop making silly posting errors here when people can just go back a couple of pages and read what you wrote early on.

Of course I said he is slow. He is.
You were saying that I said he is TOO slow, which I did not.
That is a world of difference.

I made no error. You did.

 

[Bruins29]

The whole issue was about him being a top 2-3 corner right now. Which seems silly and was claimed by a poster. Granted we all want him to be a star but right now its tryout time. He will hopefully be a great addition to the backfield.

 

[shmessy]

Butler also had perfect position to force his man out of bounds on what was almost a touchdown catch. That was pretty impressive, even if it was too close to a TD for my liking. Bottom line: if you can consistently stay with 4.3 receivers like Aldrick Robinson and Josh Boyce in man coverage, speed just isn't an issue for you.

It's obviously still too early for us to know if he'll stick, but I suspect that Belichick was doing exactly what you suggest: putting Butler on an island against the fastest guy on the Redskins and seeing how he would handle himself against elite NFL speed. And he was more than fine.

He also intercepted Brady on Monday and Foles on Tuesday.

Just sayin' for the "You have to prove it on the field and not rely on the combine measurables" crowd.

 

[shmessy]

The whole issue was about him being a top 2-3 corner right now. Which seems silly and was claimed by a poster. Granted we all want him to be a star but right now its tryout time. He will hopefully be a great addition to the backfield.

I and several other posters openly disagreed with that poster and he has not returned to thread to this point.

No one else is claiming that he is ahead of any of the top 5 CB's on the roster.

 

[Ring 6]

He also intercepted Brady on Monday and Foles on Tuesday.

Just sayin' for the "You have to prove it on the field and not rely on the combine measurables" crowd.

If only there was anyone saying that

 

[The Scrizz]

I thought the period between the draft and training camp was rough but reading 20 pages about whether or not you should play to the whistle on a meaningless preseason play and the prospects of Malcolm Butler is totally harshing by buzz.

On that second argument I'll make 2 points.

First, I hate combine numbers. I'm sure that they are useful to scouts who have also seen these guys play all the time but I can't tell you how many times players are compared here.

Player A had a better 3-cone this season that player B who's a Pro-Bowler. He is going to be that good.

4.4 forty vs 4.6 is quite literally a spit second. And the difference between a fast football player and a good football player is that the good player diagnoses the play a split second faster than the fast football player.

A good fast football player is called a pro bowler.

Second. Andy could be exactly right about something and I'll never know because all I read from him is Charlie Brown's teacher. Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. He could be saying anything but it's all noise because it's the same as the last 40,000 posts.

No offense. I do quite clearly remembering him tell me that Edelman could only run 5 yard slants and that was a good 6 games into last season. If it hasn't already happened it will never happen and if it happens and he said it wouldn't you'll never hear it. Again no offense.

 

[shmessy]

If you are saying he is a lock. I disagree.
If you are saying he is ahead of Dennard and Ryan and Arrington, I disagree.
Those were the points raised in this thread.

By ONE poster who was hooted down by everyone else and has not come back to this today.

You are arguing with a ghost. Why are you polishing his words like they are fine jewels?

 

[Ring 6]

By ONE poster who was hooted down by everyone else and has not come back to this today.

You are arguing with a ghost. Why are you polishing his words like they are fine jewels?

You stepped in to me disagreeing with those points, and are trying to create an argument to attribute to me.

 

[The Scrizz]

We have one measure of his speed and it is poor. Speed matters.

You should have just stopped right here. ONE measure of his speed. One. He's been timed once, it wasn't good, but that's his speed.

I'm a baseball stats geek and we would refer to that as a small sample size. If it was even a sample. But it isn't. It's once. One time. One single time.

And use that one time to support 100 posts.

 

[shmessy]

BTW, why do we always talk about moving Logan Ryan to Safety and not much mention is being made of the possibility of keeping Ryan at CB and moving Browner to Safety.

Browner may have a lot of difficulty with this new penalty point of emphasis this year. Why not get him off the LOS where he may be a flag magnet and have his height and ranginess back at safety - - - plus he loves to hit.

 

[The Scrizz]

BTW, why do we always talk about moving Logan Ryan to Safety and not much mention is being made of the possibility of keeping Ryan at CB and moving Browner to Safety.

Browner may have a lot of difficulty with this new penalty point of emphasis this year. Why not get him off the LOS where he may be a flag magnet and have his height and ranginess back at safety - - - plus he loves to hit.

Because BB has mentioned trying Ryan at safety and explicitly stated that Browner would only be playing CB.

 

[shmessy]

Because BB has mentioned trying Ryan at safety and explicitly stated that Browner would only be playing CB.

BB never locks himself in. A few games of flying yellow carpets may precipitate a change. We are talking about one of the NFL's greatest defensive innovators and improvisors.

The last two Patriots Secondary Players who have beaten up and tangled with Patriots WRs in TC as much as Browner were Merriwether (bad thing) and Harrison (good thing). Both Safeties.

Browner has a Safety body and a Safety mentality. That is not necessarily a good thing for a CB in 2014 with the new Points of Emphasis.