Sick of every mistake of Belichick being called "arrogance"

[Boomer B]

I'm sure most teams would trade their HC for Belichick. That said, he did cost them yesterday. I also contribute most of the Pats success to Brady.

Also can't understand why they refuse to give Tom more weapons. A quality day 1 or 2 WR and RB at some point in the last 5 years and they'd be unstoppable. Even with what they have, won a SB, been to another plus 2 other AFCC games. What they have has worked well, but probably had another 2-3 trophies with better weapons.

I would love them to get some other weapons as well (an outside WR) but Bill has done an unbelievable job building the roster. There's a salary cap so we can't have everything we want. Bill puts a lot of value in roster depth and that is one of the reasons we are consistently in the hunt. Without roster depth like it is we wouldn't have made it to 10 AFC championship games in his time here.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

You just answered it I think, their offense was sputtering so maybe Bill thought they wouldn't get back down there again.

Other than the turnover that was the first time they got that far into Broncos territory all game, you can't blame him for thinking they may not get deep into Bronco territory again but maybe they can get in FG range. That they did is the argument everyone who's saying kick the FG is making but Geez, one time in over 3 qutrs you can't blame him for going for it.

 

[PF_SU]

Idunno...if that's the case, you sure take the points - no?

The problem with this is, that drive was the first time that the offense managed to get into the Denver redzone. Take the FG here and you still need a TD (you can't bet on the scenario which then came true with us getting the ball back twice, while you can bet on your defense stopping them, betting them on getting two three-and-outs is pretty risky), only that instead of 16 yards you need like 60. It was a single yard, I wanted them to go for it (but I didn't like the play that was called at all). And don't forget, that drive came after a 10 play 48 yard Denver drive that ended with a FG.

I'm sure most teams would trade their HC for Belichick. That said, he did cost them yesterday. I also contribute most of the Pats success to Brady.

Also can't understand why they refuse to give Tom more weapons. A quality day 1 or 2 WR and RB at some point in the last 5 years and they'd be unstoppable. Even with what they have, won a SB, been to another plus 2 other AFCC games. What they have has worked well, but probably had another 2-3 trophies with better weapons.

Again this weapons myth. Tell me, which day 1/2 WR that was realistically available would have made us unstoppable to a point where we basically would've won the Super Bowl every year? So many people overrate the effect of skill players. We had the greatest offense of all time in 2007, ran into the buzzsaw Giants pass rush and put up 14 points. We had the great two TE offense with a Welker at his peak supporting them. Put up 17 against the Giants. I want them to upgrade at WR this year, but let's not be delusional and think a single receiver is the difference to winning it nearly every year.

 

[aluminum seats]

How many different threads are going to turn into a debate on the 4th and one?

Look, I could go either way with it. I would have kicked the FG, but going for it was completely defensible. And Belichick loves going for it on 4th and short....if you were so surprised by the call, you haven't been paying attention for the past 15 years. It's part of the package with Belichick. And if you don't like the Belichick package, you're an idiot.

 

[FCB02062]

I would love them to get some other weapons as well (an outside WR) but Bill has done an unbelievable job building the roster. There's a salary cap so we can't have everything we want. Bill puts a lot of value in roster depth and that is one of the reasons we are consistently in the hunt. Without roster depth like it is we wouldn't have made it to 10 AFC championship games in his time here.

Roster depth is a nice luxury, but in the end it's not roster depth guys like Jonathan Freeney, Justin Coleman, and Tavon Wilson that win or lose games for u. It's the Von Millers, Aqib Talibs, and TJ Wards that win or lose games, especially playoff games...Marcus Cannon is "roster depth", James White is "roster depth"...In the end, the Patriots needed somebody, anybody to make a play on defense - make a pick, cause a fumble, something, anything...
They couldn't do it....
When the Pats needed that awesome "roster depth" after the oline injuries, the edelman injury, the dion lewis injury, the blount injury, etc., on and on, they went 2-4 down the stretch, they couldn't protect Brady, no one could make plays on offense or defense, they couldn't convert third downs, they couldn't stop third downs, Ryan ****ing Tannehill shredded them in Miami, and they lost home field...

 

[sevengables_2207]

Roster depth is a nice luxury, but in the end it's not roster depth guys like Jonathan Freeney, Justin Coleman, and Tavon Wilson that win or lose games for u. It's the Von Millers, Aqib Talibs, and TJ Wards that win or lose games, especially playoff games...Marcus Cannon is "roster depth", James White is "roster depth"...In the end, the Patriots needed somebody, anybody to make a play on defense - make a pick, cause a fumble, something, anything...
They couldn't do it....
When the Pats needed that awesome "roster depth" after the oline injuries, the edelman injury, the dion lewis injury, the blount injury, etc., on and on, they went 2-4 down the stretch, they couldn't protect Brady, no one could make plays on offense or defense, they couldn't convert third downs, they couldn't stop third downs, Ryan ****ing Tannehill shredded them in Miami...

 

[Nunchucks]

You are talking to a lot of people here who can't separate the call from its outcome. For them something that works is a good call and something that fails is an inherently bad call. Trying to discuss the nuances of decision making with people like that is the first mistake.

I disagree that people would have killed Belichick if they kicked the field goal and lost the game. Going for it on 4th down was a mistake for a huge number of reasons. The patriots needed 2 scores to win the game.And to depend on scoring a 2-point conversion was absurd.

The Patriots had trouble completing passes all night long and now you are giving them 1 chance to complete 1 pass for a first down. Then you are asking them to score a TD from the 13, something they had trouble doing all game long. Take the field goal and worry about getting the TD on the next drive. On the next drive you have 4 downs to get into scoring position.

It is conventional wisdom to not chase points, nobody would have blamed Belichick for following the tried and true method...

 

[Sciz]

You just answered it I think, their offense was sputtering so maybe Bill thought they wouldn't get back down there again.

Exactly. He called it like a coach who wasn't sure his offense could do it again. They did, but it's easy to see why he would be concerned considering that they needed two fourth down conversions.

 

[aluminum seats]

Exactly. He called it like a coach who wasn't sure his offense could do it again. They did, but it's easy to see why he would be concerned considering that they needed two fourth down conversions.

Exactly. He thought they could get a yard. The people killing him are saying, "the Pats would obviously have driven the length of the field for another touchdown...no way you should try and get a yard there." Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[vacowboy]

Again this weapons myth. Tell me, which day 1/2 WR that was realistically available would have made us unstoppable to a point where we basically would've won the Super Bowl every year? So many people overrate the effect of skill players. We had the greatest offense of all time in 2007, ran into the buzzsaw Giants pass rush and put up 14 points. We had the great two TE offense with a Welker at his peak supporting them. Put up 17 against the Giants. I want them to upgrade at WR this year, but let's not be delusional and think a single receiver is the difference to winning it nearly every year.

I'm not saying they'd win the SB every year. Just think they'd be much better if they'd have upgraded at WR and RB over the last 5 years. They have been unbelievably good even with Edelman/Amendola and RB's like Blount, players who would probably be 'jags' on other teams.

Hard to argue with their success, just think they'd be even better served if they'd added a quality WR and RB, even on day 2 of the draft in the last 5 years.

 

[Fore2213]

I wont go so far as to call it arrogance.......but he made more blunders in the last 3 months than all other years combined as HC of NE. This is the second time in 3 years that fluffing off Miami at the end of the year cost us HF. They tried to run the ball at the worst possible time yesterday, KNOWING that have NO run game. The play calling was atrocious!!! I knew when they didn't defer at the beginning of the game something wasn't right!! I can accept the missed XP, that stuff happens, but the passive play calling..........I wish I knew what the hell BB was thinking, but yesterday falls on him, yes hes great, but even the greats screw up, and he certainly has over the past several games!!!

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

with over 6 minutes and down 8 you can argue that kicking was the right call, and I bet we would have, had it been 4th and 5+ instead of 4th and 1.

once you have failed there, at 2:20 or so there is no guarantee you'll get the ball back and so I think you have to be "all in" for the TD.

I was puzzled/torn at the first decision but fine with the 2nd.

 

[Nunchucks]

Exactly. He thought they could get a yard. The people killing him are saying, "the Pats would obviously have driven the length of the field for another touchdown...no way you should try and get a yard there." Yeah, that makes sense.

it is simply a matter of having 4 downs to work with on the next drive instead of 1 down on 4th and one then trying to get a 2 point conversion.

 

[PF_SU]

it is simply a matter of having 4 downs to work with on the next drive instead of 1 down on 4th and one then trying to get a 2 point conversion.

Yeah, but also 60-70 yards instead of 16, on a night where up to that point (and even after that) yards had to be squeezed out one-by-one.

 

[Boomer B]

Roster depth is a nice luxury, but in the end it's not roster depth guys like Jonathan Freeney, Justin Coleman, and Tavon Wilson that win or lose games for u. It's the Von Millers, Aqib Talibs, and TJ Wards that win or lose games, especially playoff games...Marcus Cannon is "roster depth", James White is "roster depth"...In the end, the Patriots needed somebody, anybody to make a play on defense - make a pick, cause a fumble, something, anything...
They couldn't do it....
When the Pats needed that awesome "roster depth" after the oline injuries, the edelman injury, the dion lewis injury, the blount injury, etc., on and on, they went 2-4 down the stretch, they couldn't protect Brady, no one could make plays on offense or defense, they couldn't convert third downs, they couldn't stop third downs, Ryan ****ing Tannehill shredded them in Miami, and they lost home field...

Not to sure where you are going with this post. Of course having guys like Miller, Talib, and Ward help win playoff games. Injuries happen, and having almost every starter on the line go down this year is pretty much unprecedented. We couldn't recover from it. We don't have some pre-ordained right to win the SB every year. Injuries happen, mistakes get made, but we are in the hunt EVERY year. 10 AFC championship games. Belichick consistently builds a roster better then any other GM. That's not really debatable.

 

[patriot1136]

I don't consider any of his decisions 'arrogant' or in the case of yesterday 'stupid.' Decisions are decisions and its based on a strategy. The strategy is to win, theres no arrogance about it.

 

[FCB02062]

Not to sure where you are going with this post. Of course having guys like Miller, Talib, and Ward help win playoff games. Injuries happen, and having almost every starter on the line go down this year is pretty much unprecedented. We couldn't recover from it. We don't have some pre-ordained right to win the SB every year. Injuries happen, mistakes get made, but we are in the hunt EVERY year. 10 AFC championship games. Belichick consistently builds a roster better then any other GM. That's not really debatable.

The point is "loading up" on depth and backups, and paying them more than other teams, as the Pats always do, is folly. Because when you loose a bunch of offensive linemen, linebackers, and receivers to injury - you're ****ed - depth or no "depth". If the ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, as it should be, then what good did the depth do? It's not as simple as this, but figure instead of Coleman, Bostic and Freeney you have "Impact player A" and those three guys' positions as "depth" are filled w rookie free agents instead? Is anything lost? I would argue no, because I can't remember anyone of those "depth" guys making one ****ing impactful play all season....

 

[sevengables_2207]

The point is "loading up" on depth and backups, and paying them more than other teams, as the Pats always do, is folly.

Yes, because nothing signifies folly more than 4 Lombardi Trophies, 6 Lamar Hunt Trophies, 13 AFC East Championships, 13 playoff appearances, 15 seasons above .500... all in the span of 15 seasons doing, as you so eloquently coined it, "as the Pats always do".

Because when you loose a bunch of offensive linemen, linebackers, and receivers to injury - you're ****ed - depth or no "depth".

And yet this team, who by your own admission was "****ed", came within a missed extra point of sending the game to OT yesterday. The only two other teams that had even remotely as many injuries, NYG and Baltimore Ratbirds, did not make the playoffs and are picking within the top ten of the draft.

If the ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, as it should be, then what good did the depth do?

Depth at certain posistions kept the team's chances to qualify for a playoff bye alive, as opposed to missing the playoffs entirely.

It's not as simple as this, but figure instead of Coleman, Bostic and Freeney you have "Impact player A" and those three guys' positions as "depth" are filled w rookie free agents instead?

This makes absolutely no sense. Coleman was basically a rookie free agent, as was Freeney when he was signed by the Dolphins before coming to New England. Bostic was taken in the second round of the 2013 NFL Draft before Jamie Collins by the Chicago Bears and lead the team in tackles in 2014.

Is anything lost?

Yes, your senses.

I would argue no, because I can't remember anyone of those "depth" guys making one ****ing impactful play all season....

Then you must not watch the games, my friend, because I seem to remember Freeney stepping in when Collins went out with illness and the defense did not fall off a cliff.

 

[neuronet]

The point is "loading up" on depth and backups, and paying them more than other teams, as the Pats always do, is folly. Because when you loose a bunch of offensive linemen, linebackers, and receivers to injury - you're ****ed - depth or no "depth". If the ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, as it should be, then what good did the depth do? It's not as simple as this, but figure instead of Coleman, Bostic and Freeney you have "Impact player A" and those three guys' positions as "depth" are filled w rookie free agents instead? Is anything lost? I would argue no, because I can't remember anyone of those "depth" guys making one ****ing impactful play all season....

Did you even watch the Super Bowl last year?

 

[fnordcircle]

People confuse bucking trends for arrogance all the time because so many of us are programmed to defer to authority.

So when Belichick does something that goes against prevailing wisdom instead of assuming that he's trying something new or thinks they might be onto something based on in-house analysis it's attributed to arrogance.