Devin McCourty

[RobertWeathers]

Geno was let go because he wasn't nearly the same guy without Rodney next to him.

It does seem that way.

Clearly he was a difference-maker in 03 and 04. When Rodney went down in 05 he was ok. He had Artrell Hawkins, freelancer Asante and rookie Ellis Hobbs to deal with so I don't knock him too much. In 06 he was hurt and 07 was pretty much MIA. The grind of this place might have gotten to him a little.

 

[Deus Irae]

It does seem that way.

Clearly he was a difference-maker in 03 and 04. When Rodney went down in 05 he was ok. He had Artrell Hawkins, freelancer Asante and rookie Ellis Hobbs to deal with so I don't knock him too much. In 06 he was hurt and 07 was pretty much MIA. The grind of this place might have gotten to him a little.

Geno's problem was that he became gun shy after his back-to-back injuries, and he played much more timidly for the rest of his career.

 

[Fencer]

I'm not even talking health. I'm just talking Browner being available and the team being able to run the envisioned defense. It's not even as if there should be any real issue acknowledging the situation, given the obvious difference in the defensive style, and level of play upon Browner's return.

You sound as if you're suggesting that Browner was essential to the success of the defense.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Very short list of very fixable Needs for 2015:

-Strong Safety (or that player to play opposite McCourty)

It would appear the answer to that need is Pat Chung.

 

[Oswlek]

It does seem that way.

Clearly he was a difference-maker in 03 and 04. When Rodney went down in 05 he was ok. He had Artrell Hawkins, freelancer Asante and rookie Ellis Hobbs to deal with so I don't knock him too much. In 06 he was hurt and 07 was pretty much MIA. The grind of this place might have gotten to him a little.

I wish he were OK in 2005! I was a huge Geno fan and in no way want to diminish how important he was to the 2003/2004 teams.... but holy crap was he terrible in 2005 until the team stumbled on to Hawkins. I was at the Saints game and was blown away at how poor the safeties played. The overall struggles were obvious, but it wasn't until I saw them live that it hit home how bad they were, Geno especially. It was damn near a miracle when he knocked away a pass in the end zone to finally nail that one home.

Geno also had the misfortune of being involved in perhaps the worst safety play I've ever seen. (the first one on this vid).



That's him arriving waaaaaaaayyyyy too late on a deep pass when the Jets have to go 50 yards in 24 seconds with no timeouts.

 

[Deus Irae]

You sound as if you're suggesting that Browner was essential to the success of the defense.

Are you just trolling, or are you not bothering to read any posts in this thread? It's not hard to find the pieces I'm responding to, when I'm quoting them. This was a particularly obvious example, given that you quoted my response to it.

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces.

 

[Fencer]

Also, I'm not totally sure how McCourty is used when he's not playing Cover 1/lone deep safety/centerfield. I think he sometimes switches to CB, but I'm not sure in exactly which packages. I want to say dime, with Harmon and Wilson at the safeties, but I'm not really sure.

Further -- what are his ST duties at this point? He's not returning kicks any more. I think he still covers them. Is he still blocking the gunner on punt returns?

>100 posts in, much of my OP hasn't been addressed. Besides the above, there are also the stats that purport to show he's highly reliable in run support, albeit for not much more than 1 play per game.

 

[Fencer]

Are you not bothering to read any posts in this thread? It's not hard to find the pieces I'm responding to, when I'm quoting them. This is a pretty obvious example.

I'm reading them, but in some cases I find that a post writer's ego seems to get in the way of him writing persuasively or clearly.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think you need to reread the entire thread. I started by stating the reasons why I don't believe McCourty is elite impact defender which had nothing to do with the Pats defense in aggregate. Instead it was an opinion formed purely based on the player's performance on the field. Feel free to debate me on the merits of that.

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces. I feel like McCourty is one of those overrated pieces. I love the Pats, but if I'm going to say Brady is one of the best QB's ever, BB is one of the best coaches ever, Gronk is the best TE in the league, Revis is a future HOF CB, Jamie Collins is one of the best athletes in the NFL, ect. At some point the rational side of my mind needs to balance some of the reasons why we don't blow everyone out by 40 points every week. Something has to give. After watching enough film I found that I don't think McCourty's actual play holds up to what his reputation says it is.

Ultimately the Pats didn't have the best defense in the NFL last season, you can slice it however you'd want, but ultimately the standard doesn't hold up. I love how talented we are, but the roster as presently constructed isn't sustainable forever. I'd love McCourty back, but ultimately I think he's closer to Antoine Bethea and Rashad Jones rather than ETIII or Smith. Not everyone on the Pats is elite, and in this case I think the Pats need to hold firm on this valuation.

Personally, I'm still pondering how I feel about paying McCourty Full Market Value, due to the inexplicable and offensive Restraints of the Salary Cap Era and the Hard Choices that they inflict...

But Brother McClusky makes a very reasoned and insightful Argument.

And all of us here should be damned Grateful for his Insight...as well as for his amazing Kindness & Patience, in light of some of the offensive and disgusting Responses that he's been assaulted with.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Geno's problem was that he became gun shy after his back-to-back injuries, and he played much more timidly for the rest of his career.

I remember him always having hamstring injuries. Always....

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm reading them, but in some cases I find that a post writer's ego seems to get in the way of him writing persuasively or clearly.

Irony on full display

 

[Oswlek]

Personally, I'm still pondering how I feel about paying McCourty Full Market Value, due to the inexplicable and offensive Restraints of the Salary Cap Era and the Hard Choices that they inflict...

But Brother McClusky makes a very reasoned and insightful Argument.

And all of us here should be damned Grateful for his Insight...as well as for his amazing Kindness & Patience, in light of some of the offensive and disgusting Responses that he's been assaulted with.

He's been patient and consistent, and I'll give him credit for watching the all-22 of other players and for admitting what he doesn't know.

I'm still not sure how much I agree with him, but I don't think I've assaulted him in any way.

 

[Deus Irae]

...But Brother McClusky makes a very reasoned and insightful Argument....

No, he hasn't. When you're arguing about

...
I mean think about how some of the players are described as:

Revis: Top 2 CB in the League
McCourty: Outstanding, Elite Safety
Browner: Strong Boundary Corner
Wilfork: Psuedo Elite Run Stuffer
Hightower & Collins: 2 of the best and most dynamic LBers in the league
Ninkovich: Clutch well rounded veteran
Jones: Above average pass rusher
Siliga, Chung, Arrington, Ayers, and Branch all useful rotational pieces.

...

and

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces.

in a thread focused specifically on the secondary and, more specifically, on McCourty, it's neither reasoned nor insightful to insist that one should be counting the start of the season, when Browner (obviously a key part of how the aggregate was going to play) was suspended for games 1-4.

 

[McClusky]

Some of you guys are relentless huh? I should have expected that, I have read this site before. Criticism of the home team never goes over well.

Anyways, words aren't really going to work in this situation, so I thought I'd try to add some value to the conversation, so I gif'd some of the 1st half passing plays of the SB for you guys to get a sense of what our cover 1 safeties really look like. A couple are Harmon and a couple are McCourty.

I'd say in watching the tape of the season McCourty played the majority of his snaps in the cover 1 shell. While he's doing his job, Harmon looks quite similar to him in this role, (I actually think he's the more instinctive of the 2, but lacks the range and downhill speed of McCourty. The point is I just don't see this position the way we use it now, and how McCourty is performing in it as a $9 million APY spot. It takes someone with truly elite instincts to be an impact player from this spot, and I just don't see McCourty as that guy. Our shell is just so deep that it's really just a guy to drop back and tackle in case someone makes a catch.

Our corners and LBers in coverage are the true impact guys, and I want to make sure we can afford to pay them.

 

[Danger Zone]

Some of you guys are relentless huh? I should have expected that, I have read this site before. Criticism of the home team never goes over well.

Actually to be fair and snarky all at the same time: one of Deus' favorite pastimes is criticizing our "home team" -to say nothing of his one man scorched and salted earth campaign waged against the evil horror that is the Patriot homer.

In this case, he's responding the way he is, not because you are criticizing the home team, but that you are disagreeing with him.

But he's also right (as he often is).. McCourty IS elite

 

[Oswlek]

Our corners and LBers in coverage are the true impact guys, and I want to make sure we can afford to pay them.

A couple questions.

1) What would an elite FS have done differently on those snaps?

2) How does Devin look when *not* playing cover 1?

I thank you for posting those gifs, but I'm not sure how opinion-altering they are. Much of his limitation on these plays appears to be play call oriented and not a flaw in his game. Even if Harmon offers similar value in this specific role, there is a great deal of value in disguise, assuming McCourty is comfortable in other coverages as well.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I wish he were OK in 2005! I was a huge Geno fan and in no way want to diminish how important he was to the 2003/2004 teams.... but holy crap was he terrible in 2005 until the team stumbled on to Hawkins. I was at the Saints game and was blown away at how poor the safeties played. The overall struggles were obvious, but it wasn't until I saw them live that it hit home how bad they were, Geno especially. It was damn near a miracle when he knocked away a pass in the end zone to finally nail that one home.

Geno also had the misfortune of being involved in perhaps the worst safety play I've ever seen. (the first one on this vid).



That's him arriving waaaaaaaayyyyy too late on a deep pass when the Jets have to go 50 yards in 24 seconds with no timeouts.

Well...I'll try not to come across as a Geno apologist but that 2010 HOU defense was downright terrible. That was before Watt and Phillips as DC. You had a terrible CB play opposite of #30 and Geno was in no-mans-land playing up the middle as Dirty Sanchez froze Geno then went to the right. The question is should Geno have stayed middle field or hedged and helped over the top to one of the sides? Not sure.

 

[Fencer]

I'd say in watching the tape of the season McCourty played the majority of his snaps in the cover 1 shell. While he's doing his job, Harmon looks quite similar to him in this role, (I actually think he's the more instinctive of the 2, but lacks the range and downhill speed of McCourty. The point is I just don't see this position the way we use it now, and how McCourty is performing in it as a $9 million APY spot. It takes someone with truly elite instincts to be an impact player from this spot, and I just don't see McCourty as that guy. Our shell is just so deep that it's really just a guy to drop back and tackle in case someone makes a catch.

Our corners and LBers in coverage are the true impact guys, and I want to make sure we can afford to pay them.

A counterargument be examples in which the CB was beaten but the safety broke up the play, such as Harmon's INT vs. the Ravens.

In 2012 McCourty was credited with 5 INTs and 13 PD. The subsequent two years, however, the stats were 1/8, then 2/9. Harmon's are 2/4, then 1/2. (All stats regular season.) Earl Thomas', by the way, aren't a lot different from McCourty's. In another comparison, a majority of Ed Reed's seasons were at 5/12 or better, including several around the 8/16 range.

McCourty's 5/13 numbers look as if they matter; but I forget whether much of that came from the CB slot.

Next question -- do we think the WR or CB are playing much differently because McCourty is out there and could be a threat? I'll toss that one over to the folks actually looking at film ...

 

[kennyb]

McCourty needs to take a hometown discount if he wants to stay here. That's why no deal yet.

 

[McClusky]

A couple questions.

1) What would an elite FS have done differently on those snaps?

2) How does Devin look when *not* playing cover 1?

I thank you for posting those gifs, but I'm not sure how opinion-altering they are. Much of his limitation on these plays appears to be play call oriented and not a flaw in his game. Even if Harmon offers similar value in this specific role, there is a great deal of value in disguise, assuming McCourty is comfortable in other coverages as well.

Well therein lies the issue, and really where the crux of the debate that I think is missed. Devin plays 75+% of his plays in that cover 1 shell. It takes him away from really even having the opportunity to be a major impact player. If we're scheming someone out from being an impact player does it really make sense to be paying him like one even if lets say he was capable of it? Could we move Harmon to get more of those cover 1 snaps and play McCourty closer to the LOS? I could potentially get on board with that, although after remembering how the latter half of his CB tenure went with us it does give me some pause. It just seems like we're not going that route after giving Chung that contract.

In answer to your first question, just a little more decisiveness and confidence. It probably partially comes with experience, but McCourty usually seems a bit hesitant compared to like an Earl Thomas or Ed Reed who was on a completely different level. Those guys generally play slightly closer to the LOS because they're more likely to guess where the ball is going, and usually guess right. They play games with the QB and play the ball not the man. When you watch them you just know.

For question number 2, in play 2 McCourty spies Wilson and does a nice job, and play 4 he doubles the crosser. He's a strong contributor close to the LOS, I don't really debate that, and has some impressive versatility. I think presently though there isn't much value in disguise since when Chung is in he's generally in cover 1 while when Harmon is in he's often closer to the LOS. We do appear to be in a cover 2 look, with those 2 in there a lot, but I think a savy QB who did his HW will know who is going where.

I've never really been here saying McCourty sucks, I just think if push comes to shove we have better ways to spend $9 million APY. Especially when I'm not entirely convinced that the guy who we have for 2 more years on his rookie contract isn't every bit as good at 75% of his job.

To be honest the majority of McCourty's good reputation seems to have come from his over the top skills and PFF not having him appear to give up a lot of catches, but in watching the tape it's pretty obvious why that is the case.