Brandon Spikes Hits to the Head on Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick

[dizi24]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

I think they've been using a very loose definition of lead with the helmet for a while now. In the last couple of years I don't think I remember a single time that the defender's helmet collided with the QB's and it didn't draw a penalty.

Again, leading with the helmet has NOTHING to do with the penalty.

 

[Pujo]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

The NFL rulebook makes no distinction about "helmet to helmet" hits. Although it's an often repeated phrase, the hitting of defenseless receivers and QBs has nothing to do with how you hit him, but where you hit him. And the rulebook is clear you can't hit a QB in the head.

The call has been made many times even where a QB just gets hit in the head with a hand, a shoulder, whatever. Same with receivers. The call was a blow to the head of a QB, which by the way the rule has been called over the last few years, was a correct call.

It's actually both. NFL Official Rulebook, Rule 12 (player conduct) Section 2 (personal fouls), Article 12 (roughing the passer) #3 (Hits to passer's head and use of helmet and facemask):

In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders
impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of
the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area (see also the other unnecessary-roughness
rules covering these subjects). A defensive player must not use his helmet against a passer who is in
a defenseless posture for example, (a) forcibly hitting the passer’s head or neck area with the helmet
or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the passer by
encircling or grasping him, or (b) lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or
forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the passer’s body. This rule does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or non-crown parts of the helmet in the course of a
conventional tackle on a passer.

Like I said though, they've been applying it very liberally, likely because of all the head (and other) injuries that have recently been talked about. I think they're consistent about it, though.

Edit: The quoted rule is from the 2011 rulebook. It's the only one I have handy. I assume the rule hasn't changed.

 

[dizi24]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

It's actually both. NFL Official Rulebook, Rule 12 (player conduct) Section 2 (personal fouls), Article 12 (roughing the passer) #3 (Hits to passer's head and use of helmet and facemask):



Like I said though, they've been applying it very liberally, likely because of all the head (and other) injuries that have recently been talked about. I think they're consistent about it, though.

Edit: The quoted rule is from the 2011 rulebook. It's the only one I have handy. I assume the rule hasn't changed.

Parera has talked about this rule a bit. It's structured a little oddly, but the end result is that you can't deliver a hit to the QB's head in anyway. The Rule makes it clear that helmet to helmet is certainly prohibited, but also makes it clear that any hit to the helmet of a QB is prohibited.

 

[Silver Blue&Red]

Ah, Spikes was staring right at the Buffalo bench when he flexed. and the look on his face certainly appeared to be sending a message, not checking out his arm.

The hit on Fitzpatrick called because Spikes rode the QB to the ground and finished with his helmet on Fitzpatrick's as he hit the ground. Spikes could have easily avoided the penalty by sliding his head to one side or the other. Since he didn't, it seems pretty obvious Spikes intended the helmet to helmet impact and can hardly complain about the resulting flag.

Ah, You are wrong. Purely incidental. Proly fined, but not intentional. That explanation you gave is just rediculous. "Sliding his head to one side or the other"? Seriously? Helmet to helmet? ..Sorry, but you are way off base. Thank God somebody on this team has some gonads for Christ sakes, instead of sulking on the bench. We b!tch and moan when they dont play with b@lls, then complain that they are too ruff. CRUSH, KILL, DESTROY.. That is all that matters

 

[CityOfChampions]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

Fitz should be fined for not wearing his helmet tight enough

 

[Silver Blue&Red]

AHHH, poor lil Fitz. The big ole Pats broke your little crown. Fitzpatrick: Spikes is a 'punk' at times

 

[Pujo]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

Parera has talked about this rule a bit. It's structured a little oddly, but the end result is that you can't deliver a hit to the QB's head in anyway. The Rule makes it clear that helmet to helmet is certainly prohibited, but also makes it clear that any hit to the helmet of a QB is prohibited.

That's true. The way I read it, either making contact with the QB's helmet - using any part of your body, or making contact using your helmet/facemask - to any part of the QB's body, are both illegal. Helmet to helmet is a double no-no, in a sense.

 

[Gator Mike]

Too much rules discussion, not enough discussion about how awesome Brandon Spikes is.

Brandon Spikes knocks out Scott Chandler - YouTube

Brandon Spikes hits Shonn Greene - YouTube

Brandon Spikes Destroys Jake Ballard - YouTube

Brandon spikes is a problem... - YouTube

Mr Moreno meets Mr Spikes - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmPDRXeOpN4

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Anyone see last weeks episode of the league? Fitzpatrick was on it and got punched by one of the guys

 

[Froob]

Is Spikes officially the hardest hitter in the league?

 

[Reckedtrek]

Is Spikes officially the hardest hitter in the league?

It's difficult to say. Most of the people he hits can't remember much and the ones that can remember seem unable to talk.

:rocker:

 

[woolster22]

Fitz hit was bull****. Clean play by a hard moving lb who plays by the book, tries to wrap and lead with his chest turns, into fifteen the other way. Jackson is a ball carrier who has the full ability to keep his safety in mind. If I remember correctly, the announcers lauded his "effort" on the two plays resulting in fumbles...Lol. spikes is a beast. The zebras blew numerous calls, and I missed the game until half way through the second. Two bull**** pi calls going our way resulting in a td (neither call on the intended receiver, should have been holding, illegal contact rather than spot fouls), the roughing call, the call on mayo even looked questionable in slow motion, but I was pretty pissed at the zebras at that point...

Then we have the genius oc...quick snap garbage call after Ridley gashes the d inside the ten I believe? Then two passes, both with under 2:30...wtf. somebody take the Jefferson reserve away from mcdaniels! That sob unveiled the victory booze waaaay too early this time. Left buffalo with two time outs and a free play before the warning after letting Brady choke in the fourth (again...run the God dam rock!).

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

The NFL rulebook makes no distinction about "helmet to helmet" hits. Although it's an often repeated phrase, the hitting of defenseless receivers and QBs has nothing to do with how you hit him, but where you hit him. And the rulebook is clear you can't hit a QB in the head.

Here is the link to the 2012 Rulebook:
Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (c):

In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer or use the hands, arms or other part of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area (see also the other unnecessary roughness rules covering these subjects). A defensive player must not use his helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture - for example (1) hitting the head or neck area with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the passerby encircling or grasping him.; or 2) lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/"hairline" parts of the helmet against any part of the passer's body. This rule does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or non-crown parts of the helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on a passer

As you can see, it's the same rule that Pujo quoted you. The last line that I put in bold is what makes it a non-issue. The facemask contact was incidental. The reason that Fitzpatrick's helmet came off is that the momentum of Spikes' 270lbs. body sliding across it ripped it off. Not because Spikes facemask made contact.

 

[Pujo]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

Here is the link to the 2012 Rulebook:
Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (c):



As you can see, it's the same rule that Pujo quoted you. The last line that I put in bold is what makes it a non-issue. The facemask contact was incidental. The reason that Fitzpatrick's helmet came off is that the momentum of Spikes' 270lbs. body sliding across it ripped it off. Not because Spikes facemask made contact.

These days, they're always going to err on the side of calling that, though.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

These days, they're always going to err on the side of calling that, though.

Thats true and if it was their only bad call of the day it would be somewhat acceptable, they were pretty bad, both ways, Im not saying we got jobbed, they helped up probably more than hurt but still, they were bad. On the 3rd and 15, his knee was down 3 yards short of the 1st down, dont know why anyone didnt alert BB to challenge. It was 3rd down and would have got the ball back.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson in Head With Forearm, Forces Fumble, Flexes (Animation) | NESN.com

and

Ryan Fitzpatrick Calls Brandon Spikes a ‘Punk,’ ‘Took a Cheap Shot’ in Earlier Game | NESN.com

I understand WHY the helmet to helmet was called on Fitzpatrick, but disagree with it being a dirty or "punkish" hit. It simply looks like a full on tackle to me.

And the above animation of the forearm hit on Spikes... I just dont see that one at all. In fact, it simply looks like Spikes met him with his shoulder, plain and simple.

If Jackson had lowered his helmet any more before the contact it would have been driving into Spikes knee. I'm sorry, but when the RB intentionally lowers their helmet that far for the spear on the tackler, its not the defenders fault when that helmet hits something hard... like Spikes.

Am I being a homer here? Both of these hits look clean to me. All I am seeing is some clean, hard hits. I'm not seeing the punk (intent to injure).

The spikes hit on Jackson was legit. He's a ball carrier and head or shoulder to head contact is permitted. As it is, Jackson actually lowered his head which is suicidal so, had he got hurt, it would have been his own fault. Stupid play on his part.

The flagged play on Fitz was a flag all the way. You can't make any contact with the QB's head using your helmet or shoulder and he did just that. No a cheap hit at all, just a simple mistake.

Fitz was being a bit of a baby...it wasn't a huge or horrendous hit.

You understand WHY it was called? Please do explain because Spikes' didn't lead with his helmet, which is the requirement for helmet to helmet hits.

You come up with these crackers every week. It was a flag. You try to not pick the rule every week but simple fact is, initial contact was up in the head/neck area. If you're telling me it wasn't, it's a lost cause!

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

Here is the link to the 2012 Rulebook:
Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (c):



As you can see, it's the same rule that Pujo quoted you. The last line that I put in bold is what makes it a non-issue. The facemask contact was incidental. The reason that Fitzpatrick's helmet came off is that the momentum of Spikes' 270lbs. body sliding across it ripped it off. Not because Spikes facemask made contact.

Game, set and match on this discussion. Well done DaBruinz.

Another blown call was by Fitz. He called BS a punk in his PC partly based on that penalty which based on replay and rules was simply a football play. Kind of makes Fitz look like the punk IMHO...
As far as the trash talking? Not a big fan of it but have more respect for a trash talker who backs it up with good play. As far as calling someone out for trash talking? I'd respect that person more for it if their own house wasn't guilty of it too...

 

[Gumby]

Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson in Head With Forearm, Forces Fumble, Flexes (Animation) | NESN.com
and

Ryan Fitzpatrick Calls Brandon Spikes a ‘Punk,’ ‘Took a Cheap Shot’ in Earlier Game | NESN.com

I understand WHY the helmet to helmet was called on Fitzpatrick, but disagree with it being a dirty or "punkish" hit. It simply looks like a full on tackle to me.

And the above animation of the forearm hit on Spikes... I just dont see that one at all. In fact, it simply looks like Spikes met him with his shoulder, plain and simple.

If Jackson had lowered his helmet any more before the contact it would have been driving into Spikes knee. I'm sorry, but when the RB intentionally lowers their helmet that far for the spear on the tackler, its not the defenders fault when that helmet hits something hard... like Spikes.

Am I being a homer here? Both of these hits look clean to me. All I am seeing is some clean, hard hits. I'm not seeing the punk (intent to injure).

THIS IS SUCH A BS THING (the flexing).

This "flex" is DATE-TIME stamped in video as 0.59 left in 4Q. Which is the end of the play starting at 1.15 4Q where Jackson fumbled and C. Jones lost the recovery to a Bills Lineman. Leaving it Buffy 3rd and 3.
So the 'flex' occurred during the injury TO while jackson was helped off.

But NOTE This was a play in which Spikes was CLEARLY HIT with a BLOCK IN THE BACK by a Buffy TE (84) and was actually pushed into Jackson at the angle he hit him at -not necessarily aimed that way himself. How hard he was pushed is not really visible in the NESN video; live broadcast replay showed it better.

I don't know about this allegation that the flex was directed at the bench; I origianlly couldnt tell which direction he is facing. On 3rd review it does appear to be in Buffy's direction.

But it certainly looks to me more like he is gesturing or talking to someone rather than smack talking. [if you are actually talking smack to an opposing team - generally YOUR LIPS MOVE.] It almost looks like he is gesturing to show WHERE the injury to jackson was on jacksons body. Not to talk smack. but whatever.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Spikes is the hardest hitter in the NFL right now.

and he's the most clutch player on our defense. That FF should've been recovered by the Pats too.

 

[dizi24]

Re: Brandon Spikes Hits Fred Jackson and Fitzpatrick in the Head

Here is the link to the 2012 Rulebook:
Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (c):



As you can see, it's the same rule that Pujo quoted you. The last line that I put in bold is what makes it a non-issue. The facemask contact was incidental. The reason that Fitzpatrick's helmet came off is that the momentum of Spikes' 270lbs. body sliding across it ripped it off. Not because Spikes facemask made contact.

This is not the correct meaning of the rule. You're reading that one line about incidental contact out of context, and it doesn't mean what you think it does.

This rule covers two different situations:
(1) A hit on the QB above the shoulders. The rule defines this is a helmet, hand, shoulder, etc. Basically, there is an absolute prohibition on forcibly hitting a QB in the head. The refs in last nights game showed how the rule is interpreted on the hit that knocked out Cutler when they said "Roughing the Passer, hitting the passer above the shoulders." This was called on Spikes.
(2) Where a defensive player leads with the crown of this helmet into a QB. Clearly if he does this into the helmet of the QB, it's roughing the passer. But a defensive player cannot launch the crown of his helmet into the ribs, chest, shoulder area, etc. by leading with it. This is not what was called on Spikes.

The line you bolded refers to the second part of the rule. The "incidental contact" rule refers to the fact that defensive players can hit the QB with their helmet in the course of making a tackle, as long as they don't lead with it. This of course is just common sense, as it just codifies the common sense understanding that helmets can come into contact with a player being tackled without it being a penalty.

Thus, what you bolded had nothing to do with the hit on Spikes. I don't know what you find confusing, because you flat out cannot hit the QB in the head with any level of force. Spikes made contact with Fitz' head, so it is roughing the passer.