Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[patchick]

Justin Houston, DE. He displayed special athleticism to rush the passer effectively. He looked uncomfortable and unnatural dropping into coverage, though, and doesn't appear capable of converting to outside linebacker. His NFL future likely will be as an end in a 4-3 scheme.

Georgia defensive end Justin Houston ran about as expected at the team's pro day Tuesday, slightly improving on his 4.62 40 at the Combine by timing in the high 4.5's on some watches. He also looked solid in position drills, showing good foot quickness and balance when changing directions.

Houston's versatility as a pass-rushing 3-4 OLB or 4-3 defensive end (in systems where being a shade under 6-3 is not a concern) makes him a coveted prospect. Unlike many college defensive ends transitioning into the 3-4, Houston does have some experience rushing from a stand-up position. But his "linebacker" work comprised mostly of chasing the quarterback, so he would have to work on other aspects of his game to be more than a specialist at the next level.

Former Ohio State star Vernon Gholston, recently released by the Jets after taking him with the sixth overall selection in 2006, tested simiarly to Houston coming out of school but struggled to make the transition to the 3-4 outside linebacker position. That's one reason Houston may, instead, be a mid-to-late first round pick to Tampa Bay or New Orleans as a weak-side defensive end.

And I'll add my own eyes to that list. I watched his combine drills, and he looked strong and confident moving forward, average moving sideways, and awkward and panicky moving backwards and simulating coverage. Actually fell to the ground twice in one coverage drill.

 

[Snake Eyes]

And I'll add my own eyes to that list. I watched his combine drills, and he looked strong and confident moving forward, average moving sideways, and awkward and panicky moving backwards and simulating coverage. Actually fell to the ground twice in one coverage drill.

Ok, but has he consistently had those issues or is this a single data point? Jake Locker was terrible at the Senior Bowl but looked MUCH better at the Combine, it’s entirely possible for a player to improve at something they’re not great at right now, the question regarding Houston is whether he has the capacity to develop into a BB-approved OLB?

In general, I get a good feeling from Houston and Smith gives me a bad vibe, this has nothing to do with their playing but rather about their personality, Smith strikes me as a me-first kinda guy with high diva potential.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ok, but has he consistently had those issues or is this a single data point? Jake Locker was terrible at the Senior Bowl but looked MUCH better at the Combine, it’s entirely possible for a player to improve at something they’re not great at right now, the question regarding Houston is whether he has the capacity to develop into a BB-approved OLB?

In general, I get a good feeling from Houston and Smith gives me a bad vibe, this has nothing to do with their playing but rather about their personality, Smith strikes me as a me-first kinda guy with high diva potential.

The kid just spent an entire year learning OLB in a 3-4 from RAC's DC at Cleveburgh, since then he's put on the show patchick wrote about above (which I can confirm), and the show reported above at his Pro-Day. Everything, including my look at him during the season, says "bad fit" for NE (and that also includes his mindset where I was unimpressed with his lack of aggressiveness and awareness in the season, and his apparent efforts to prepare for DE only). Vote "No" on April 28-30.

 

[BPF]

The kid just spent an entire year learning OLB in a 3-4 from RAC's DC at Cleveburgh, since then he's put on the show patchick wrote about above (which I can confirm), and the show reported above at his Pro-Day. Everything, including my look at him during the season, says "bad fit" for NE (and that also includes his mindset where I was unimpressed with his lack of aggressiveness and awareness in the season, and his apparent efforts to prepare for DE only). Vote "No" on April 28-30.

I don't think the Pats should pick this kid in RD 1 -- see my previous post mentioning he's got the goods as a pass rusher-- but the fact remains to bend and get low like he does on OT's while pass rushing and his 3-cone #'s I think this kid can move laterally and he can with repetition learn to be a successful 3-4 OLB but it's not a chance I'd take in RD 1.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't think the Pats should pick this kid in RD 1 -- see my previous post mentioning he's got the goods as a pass rusher-- but the fact remains to bend and get low like he does on OT's while pass rushing and his 3-cone #'s I think this kid can move laterally and he can with repetition learn to be a successful 3-4 OLB but it's not a chance I'd take in RD 1.

If I was more confident that he had the mental and emotional make up to work at the transition, I'd consider round two, but I just didn't see "it" in the games I watched. Kerrigan, Sheard, Reed ... Karl Klug in the 6th, "it's" there. Heck, if Watt dropped to the late first I'd try him at OLB first.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Heck, if Watt dropped to the late first I'd try him at OLB first.

That's very interesting, I don't like him as a DE for us but I could warm to the idea of him being an OLB.

 

[jays52]

That's the weird part. With his agility Watt could legitimately play a handful of snaps at outside backer and he ain't done growing yet. We're talking about a player that can play the 4 and 5 techniques in base, the 3 or 6 techniques in sub, and can play some 60 alignment as well. Nevermind putting him with Crump and Gronk for goalline. Players like that come along once a decade.

 

[BPF]

If I was more confident that he had the mental and emotional make up to work at the transition, I'd consider round two, but I just didn't see "it" in the games I watched. Kerrigan, Sheard, Reed ... Karl Klug in the 6th, "it's" there. Heck, if Watt dropped to the late first I'd try him at OLB first.

You're right, he's best fit seems to be playing with his hand on the ground, he has some value as a nickel rusher possibly learning the craft of OLB in the distant future but with the work ethic and motor questions probably not worth a risk for Pats. I'm with you on Kerrigan (1st Rd), Sheard and Reed (late 1st/2nd) and Jarrett Johnson 2.0 later in draft.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That's the weird part. With his agility Watt could legitimately play a handful of snaps at outside backer and he ain't done growing yet. We're talking about a player that can play the 4 and 5 techniques in base, the 3 or 6 techniques in sub, and can play some 60 alignment as well. Nevermind putting him with Crump and Gronk for goalline. Players like that come along once a decade.

Ok, I'm starting to feel the love, he'd probably be really good at blocking punts as well. He reminds me of Jared Allen which makes me think "what could BB do with a Jared Allen, would such a player be worth a 1st round pick"?

 

[Metaphors]

That's the weird part. With his agility Watt could legitimately play a handful of snaps at outside backer and he ain't done growing yet. We're talking about a player that can play the 4 and 5 techniques in base, the 3 or 6 techniques in sub, and can play some 60 alignment as well. Nevermind putting him with Crump and Gronk for goalline.

That is the type of thinking that makes Watt a legit option for the Pats at #17. As a traditional 3-4 DE, he isn't a guy that eats up blocks, causes a pileup of bodies between the tackles and keeps the LBs clean to make plays. The Pats already have Warren, Brace and Stroud to do that. I'm with you on focusing on the many things he can do well.

Players like that come along once a decade.

I'm not so sure about that. I would consider Jordan to be very similar in the characteristics you describe. I just think that the tweeners who used to be locked into a 4-3 DE role are now becoming athletic enough to become options for 3-4 coaches with enough imagination to use them.

 

[Off The Grid]

With his agility Watt could legitimately play a handful of snaps at outside backer and he ain't done growing yet. We're talking about a player that can play the 4 and 5 techniques in base, the 3 or 6 techniques in sub, and can play some 60 alignment as well. Nevermind putting him with Crump and Gronk for goalline. Players like that come along once a decade.

Tremendous post, and I am with you 100%.

I have been FROTHING for us to get this kid since October.

In my view, he has flat out HALL OF FAME potential in this Defense.

He was absolutely, undeniably BORN to join forces with us.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

Tremendous post, and I am with you 100%.

I have been FROTHING for us to get this kid since October.

In my view, he has flat out HALL OF FAME potential in this Defense.

He was absolutely, undeniably BORN to join forces with us.

I'll second the motion. The only thing that isn't making him a surefire top-10 pick is a lack of a resume.

 

[jays52]

Tremendous post, and I am with you 100%.

I have been FROTHING for us to get this kid since October.

In my view, he has flat out HALL OF FAME potential in this Defense.

He was absolutely, undeniably BORN to join forces with us.

My extra-terrestrial friend, I refer to him as the Connor Barwin of the d-line. Everything there is perfect, the one thing is experience and reps. Barwin in 2009 looked like Ware 2.0 with his conversion enabling the requisite drop. Watt is no different. He is Seymour minus two years of advanced puberty plus obscene lateral agility. I'm a relatively new Watt acolyte but he is truly special and the lack of tape enables the drop. Had he not been a TE, we'd be talking about Toronto taking him. The issue is that he's too ideal and consequently the mad Croatian will never take him.

 

[jays52]

That is the type of thinking that makes Watt a legit option for the Pats at #17. As a traditional 3-4 DE, he isn't a guy that eats up blocks, causes a pileup of bodies between the tackles and keeps the LBs clean to make plays. The Pats already have Warren, Brace and Stroud to do that. I'm with you on focusing on the many things he can do well.



I'm not so sure about that. I would consider Jordan to be very similar in the characteristics you describe. I just think that the tweeners who used to be locked into a 4-3 DE role are now becoming athletic enough to become options for 3-4 coaches with enough imagination to use them.

We view Watt differently, and that makes sense as I am evaluating him off of his last four games. I am projecting the player a lot more than I think you are which explains the difference.

Also, I really don't have a leg to stand on when evaluating Jordan. I have only seen limited reps, defensive unit stats, and highlights which clearly lead to poor perspective. Such a glowing endorsement from a poster like yourself warrants a deep dive and a re-evaluation.

 

[BoSoxJim]

Justin Houston, DE. He displayed special athleticism to rush the passer effectively. He looked uncomfortable and unnatural dropping into coverage, though, and doesn't appear capable of converting to outside linebacker. His NFL future likely will be as an end in a 4-3 scheme.[/URL]

Georgia defensive end Justin Houston ran about as expected at the team's pro day Tuesday, slightly improving on his 4.62 40 at the Combine by timing in the high 4.5's on some watches. He also looked solid in position drills, showing good foot quickness and balance when changing directions.

Houston's versatility as a pass-rushing 3-4 OLB or 4-3 defensive end (in systems where being a shade under 6-3 is not a concern) makes him a coveted prospect. Unlike many college defensive ends transitioning into the 3-4, Houston does have some experience rushing from a stand-up position. But his "linebacker" work comprised mostly of chasing the quarterback, so he would have to work on other aspects of his game to be more than a specialist at the next level.

Former Ohio State star Vernon Gholston, recently released by the Jets after taking him with the sixth overall selection in 2006, tested simiarly to Houston coming out of school but struggled to make the transition to the 3-4 outside linebacker position. That's one reason Houston may, instead, be a mid-to-late first round pick to Tampa Bay or New Orleans as a weak-side defensive end.[/URL]

this is my first reply to a message here and don't want to step on anybody's toes. that being said, i have to disagree with that classification of justin houston.

and i certainly disagree with the comparison to vernon gholston. aldon smith would be a better comparison (if any are to be made with this year's crop).

IMO, houston is the best all around OLB prospect. this past season he played 3-4 OLB in georgia's new 3-4 defense after being a 4-3 DE. his movement is fluid. shows no stiffness in his knees or hips.

sure, his play was a little inconsistent against the run. but that is understandable having to learn a new position (instead of being just a hand in the dirt lineman). he's uncomfortable at times in pass coverage (but tell me how many OLBs are great in man-man coverage).

he can set the edge in the run game (needs some more experience). and he can get after the QB. 10 sacks and 44 QB hurries to go with 18.5 TFLs. not too shabby for a 1st year OLB.

and since he played 3-4 OLB last season, i have more confidence in him making it in the nfl as a 3-4 OLB than kerrigan (who is pretty stiff). and clay matthews is not all that good against the run or in pass coverage. but he can get after the passer. the pats have nobody who can get after the passer with any consistency.

the return of ty warren and the addition of a 3-4 DE like cameron jordan should free up players like mayo to make more impact plays. hopefully cunningham continues to improve (and stay healthy). and with houston on the right side (and not having to deal with OTs), he should be the disruptive force they need.

 

[BoSoxJim]

My extra-terrestrial friend, I refer to him as the Connor Barwin of the d-line. Everything there is perfect, the one thing is experience and reps. Barwin in 2009 looked like Ware 2.0 with his conversion enabling the requisite drop. Watt is no different. He is Seymour minus two years of advanced puberty plus obscene lateral agility. I'm a relatively new Watt acolyte but he is truly special and the lack of tape enables the drop. Had he not been a TE, we'd be talking about Toronto taking him. The issue is that he's too ideal and consequently the mad Croatian will never take him.

i seem to be the contrarian here. i do like watt but feel he's a step below jordan.

i worry a bit about watt's technique as he stands up way too much and gets either stonewalled against the pass or pancaked against the run. of course, with good coaching, i feel he can correct that. but i like that jordan seems to be a plug-n-play 3-4 DE that would thrive in the pats defense.

jordan has great technique and is stout against the run. he can take on double teams and at least keep his ground. his pass rushing is underrated by some. but he's a 3-down DE that the pats have sorely missed.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

this is my first reply to a message here and don't want to step on anybody's toes. that being said, i have to disagree with that classification of justin houston.

and i certainly disagree with the comparison to vernon gholston. aldon smith would be a better comparison (if any are to be made with this year's crop).

IMO, houston is the best all around OLB prospect. this past season he played 3-4 OLB in georgia's new 3-4 defense after being a 4-3 DE. his movement is fluid. shows no stiffness in his knees or hips.

sure, his play was a little inconsistent against the run. but that is understandable having to learn a new position (instead of being just a hand in the dirt lineman). he's uncomfortable at times in pass coverage (but tell me how many OLBs are great in man-man coverage).

he can set the edge in the run game (needs some more experience). and he can get after the QB. 10 sacks and 44 QB hurries to go with 18.5 TFLs. not too shabby for a 1st year OLB.

and since he played 3-4 OLB last season, i have more confidence in him making it in the nfl as a 3-4 OLB than kerrigan (who is pretty stiff). and clay matthews is not all that good against the run or in pass coverage. but he can get after the passer. the pats have nobody who can get after the passer with any consistency.

the return of ty warren and the addition of a 3-4 DE like cameron jordan should free up players like mayo to make more impact plays. hopefully cunningham continues to improve (and stay healthy). and with houston on the right side (and not having to deal with OTs), he should be the disruptive force they need.

Civil disagreement is always welcome, it makes a nice change of pace from the usual. Having watched Houston several times this season, and having taken into consideration his new position, I didn't see anything in his game which made him a first round grade at OLB for NE; what I saw from him at the Combine in anything not specific to charging at a QB was the same as what was reported. We must agree to disagree, welcome aboard!

 

[supafly]

this is my first reply to a message here and don't want to step on anybody's toes. that being said, i have to disagree with that classification of justin houston.

and i certainly disagree with the comparison to vernon gholston. aldon smith would be a better comparison (if any are to be made with this year's crop).

IMO, houston is the best all around OLB prospect. this past season he played 3-4 OLB in georgia's new 3-4 defense after being a 4-3 DE. his movement is fluid. shows no stiffness in his knees or hips.

sure, his play was a little inconsistent against the run. but that is understandable having to learn a new position (instead of being just a hand in the dirt lineman). he's uncomfortable at times in pass coverage (but tell me how many OLBs are great in man-man coverage).

he can set the edge in the run game (needs some more experience). and he can get after the QB. 10 sacks and 44 QB hurries to go with 18.5 TFLs. not too shabby for a 1st year OLB.

and since he played 3-4 OLB last season, i have more confidence in him making it in the nfl as a 3-4 OLB than kerrigan (who is pretty stiff). and clay matthews is not all that good against the run or in pass coverage. but he can get after the passer. the pats have nobody who can get after the passer with any consistency.

the return of ty warren and the addition of a 3-4 DE like cameron jordan should free up players like mayo to make more impact plays. hopefully cunningham continues to improve (and stay healthy). and with houston on the right side (and not having to deal with OTs), he should be the disruptive force they need.

Welcome to the forum

 

[NFLroughdraft]

Kerrigan Purdeue 6'4" 260 (1st round grade)
Houston UGA 6'3" 260 (1st round grade)
Smith Mizzu 6'4" 260 (1st round grade)
Ayers UCLA 6'4" 255 (2nd round grade)
Beal Oklahoma 6'4" 265 (2nd round grade)
Sheard Pittsburgh 6'3" 260 (2nd round grade)
Acho Texas 6'3" 260 (3rd round grade)
Wright Miss State 6'3" 250 (3rd round grade)
Keiser Stanford 6'5" 244 (3rd round grade) [2nd round if he gets his weight up to 250 plus]
Allen Nebraska 6'4" 265 (4th round grade)
Romeus Putsburgh 6'5" 270 (4th round grade)
Mathews SC 6'4" 265 (5th round grade)
Elmore Arizona 6'5" 250 (5th round grade)
White Florida State 6'4" 260 (6th round grade)
Chinasa Oklahome State 6'5" 255 (6th round grade)
Winterswyck 6'4" 260 (6th round grade)
Bair Oregon 6'5" 270 (7th round grade)
Jones TExas 6'3" 260 (7th round grade)
Marshall South Florida 6'4" 265 (UDFA)
Lockett Ole Miss 6'5" 260 (UDFA)
Parr Virginia 6'6" 270 (UDFA)
Reed Arizona 6'4" 260 (UDFA)
Albright BC 6'5" 250 (UDFA)

We mark players with (3-4 OLB) designations in the rankings on our website. You may find that somewhat useful. I can't post links yet but (3-4 OLB) would be found under both the OLB and DE rankings on NFLroughdraft dot com.

 

[IllegalContact]

My extra-terrestrial friend, I refer to him as the Connor Barwin of the d-line. Everything there is perfect, the one thing is experience and reps. Barwin in 2009 looked like Ware 2.0 with his conversion enabling the requisite drop. Watt is no different. He is Seymour minus two years of advanced puberty plus obscene lateral agility. I'm a relatively new Watt acolyte but he is truly special and the lack of tape enables the drop. Had he not been a TE, we'd be talking about Toronto taking him. The issue is that he's too ideal and consequently the mad Croatian will never take him.

he is seymour minus a little more than that. watt is likely closer to mike wright than seymour.