Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[supafly]

he is seymour minus a little more than that. watt is likely closer to mike wright than seymour.

You're making me miss Seymour, lol!! (not that I ever stopped)

 

[jays52]

i seem to be the contrarian here. i do like watt but feel he's a step below jordan.

i worry a bit about watt's technique as he stands up way too much and gets either stonewalled against the pass or pancaked against the run. of course, with good coaching, i feel he can correct that. but i like that jordan seems to be a plug-n-play 3-4 DE that would thrive in the pats defense.

jordan has great technique and is stout against the run. he can take on double teams and at least keep his ground. his pass rushing is underrated by some. but he's a 3-down DE that the pats have sorely missed.

No worries on disagreement, it's a necessary part of the evaluation process and you bring some meat to the table which is appreciated. Like I said before, I need to re-evaluate my opinion of Jordan and that will take a little time. From what I've seen, though is that he does guess quite a bit and I think he's already as good as he's gonna get. He strikes me as a nice, albeit underwhelming prospect. Again, I need more study time though.

It feels like we're watching different players when you describe Watt. I would be shocked if he was pancaked once last year as his hands and feet are too good for that to happen. He has the best initial punch of any prospect at his position I have ever seen. He plays with tremendous pad height when his job is to hold the POA when he is being attacked as the EMOS in an effort to secure the edge. He gets his hands into the breastplate before the lineman can raise his own hands. That's special. His hand placement is ideal with his thumbs up on the steering wheel, and he uses it well. He sinks his hips better than any end I've really watched this year. The thing about Watt's game that causes a lot of mistaken evaluations is how zone heavy his conference is. When you combine this with his defensive responsibilities in respect to scheme it looks like he's getting sealed or washed. Often he drives hard in the direction of the zone blocks as the backside end to keep his pursuit clean behind him. Often times on the zone read option many colleges use, the first read is the backside end. When Watt gets ahead of his blocker to seal the cutback lane and keep his guy off of his pursuit, the QB keeps and hits where Watt began. Watt has now given his outside shoulder and all his momentum away, and the tackle has a very easy job of sealing and washing. I encourage you to watch Watt and pay specific attention to the intent of the play on both sides of the ball and how Watt executes in respect to this. Pay extra close attention to his hands as well.

 

[jays52]

he is seymour minus a little more than that. watt is likely closer to mike wright than seymour.

The only thing Watt and Wright have in common is the color of their skin. Their games are 100% polar opposites. Wright's game is all leg driven power. He is a very, very powerful player for his frame with slow hands and feet. He's an undersized high effort backup.

I'm saying this with the nicest intent in the world and really not tryingbto be a jerk, but if you'd like I can teach you how to evaluate d-linemen.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The only thing Watt and Wright have in common is the color of their skin. Their games are 100% polar opposites. Wright's game is all leg driven power. He is a very, very powerful player for his frame with slow hands and feet. He's an undersized high effort backup.

I'm saying this with the nicest intent in the world and really not tryingbto be a jerk, but if you'd like I can teach you how to evaluate d-linemen.

I'm an amateur at evaluating players and I'm not afraid to admit it, any wisdom you can impart would be appreciated:rocker:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

We mark players with (3-4 OLB) designations in the rankings on our website. You may find that somewhat useful. I can't post links yet but (3-4 OLB) would be found under both the OLB and DE rankings on NFLroughdraft dot com.

Linked

....

 

[supafly]

Sorry if it's been brought up before (as just about all of these players and topics have been), but what do you scouting gurus think of Sam Acho?

Is there a fit for him here? I really have not watched much Big 12 ball last yr, but have been hearing some good things about him lately that would make him desirable to Belichick--but have no idea if he's a prospect for this particular scheme, etc.

Certainly has some talent, looks to project to a 3-4 OLB, and sounds smarter than hell.

Sam Acho will make you feel like a slacker | ProFootballTalk

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Sorry if it's been brought up before (as just about all of these players and topics have been), but what do you scouting gurus think of Sam Acho?

Is there a fit for him here? I really have not watched much Big 12 ball last yr, but have been hearing some good things about him lately that would make him desirable to Belichick--but have no idea if he's a prospect for this particular scheme, etc.

Certainly has some talent, looks to project to a 3-4 OLB, and sounds smarter than hell.

Sam Acho will make you feel like a slacker | ProFootballTalk

Sam's agent is doing a good job of getting his name out there.

During the season I didn't see anything in Sam to make me feel he upgraded any of the current NE OLBs. I'd guess his ceiling is where Ninkovich currently is, and I think Ninko has more room to grow into the job.

 

[IllegalContact]

The only thing Watt and Wright have in common is the color of their skin. Their games are 100% polar opposites. Wright's game is all leg driven power. He is a very, very powerful player for his frame with slow hands and feet. He's an undersized high effort backup.

I'm saying this with the nicest intent in the world and really not tryingbto be a jerk, but if you'd like I can teach you how to evaluate d-linemen.

and watt is nothing like seymour. seymour has the frame to carry 325-330 and still keep the 40 under 5.0.......watt is not quite that and never will be

I refer to him as the Connor Barwin of the d-line. Everything there is perfect, the one thing is experience and reps. Barwin in 2009 looked like Ware 2.0 with his conversion enabling the requisite drop. Watt is no different. He is Seymour minus two years of advanced puberty plus obscene lateral agility. I'm a relatively new Watt acolyte but he is truly special and the lack of tape enables the drop. Had he not been a TE, we'd be talking about Toronto taking him. The issue is that he's too ideal and consequently the mad Croatian will never take him.

is this how you evaluate d-linemen?

this is what the NFL analysis says

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - J.J. Watt

Lacks some lateral mobility both rushing the passer and playing in space.

 

[jays52]

and watt is nothing like seymour. seymour has the frame to carry 325-330 and still keep the 40 under 5.0.......watt is not quite that and never will be


this is what the NFL analysis says

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - J.J. Watt

Lacks some lateral mobility both rushing the passer and playing in space.

Sigh. If your mind is made up then I guess it's made up. For what it's worth there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here that can better all of our opinions. It's not about winning an argument, it's about improving our knowledge. Balanced opinions also help, so when a writer for the league jots a few notes about agility it's always good to balance that with a 3-cone time. Watt ran a 6.88. I encourage you to look up the receiver times as a point of reference.

Ps, I know you're not going to listen to me, so while we're on the topic of NFL analysis google Mike Mayock on JJ Watt.

 

[dryheat44]

Sorry if it's been brought up before (as just about all of these players and topics have been), but what do you scouting gurus think of Sam Acho?

Is there a fit for him here? I really have not watched much Big 12 ball last yr, but have been hearing some good things about him lately that would make him desirable to Belichick--but have no idea if he's a prospect for this particular scheme, etc.

Certainly has some talent, looks to project to a 3-4 OLB, and sounds smarter than hell.

Sam Acho will make you feel like a slacker | ProFootballTalk

I like the kid. He's a high-effort athlete who'll play in the league for a long time. If we don't already have a linebacker in the fold, he might make a good pick at #74. Like Box said, though, his upside is probably Ninkovich.

 

[IllegalContact]

Sigh. If your mind is made up then I guess it's made up. For what it's worth there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here that can better all of our opinions. It's not about winning an argument, it's about improving our knowledge. Balanced opinions also help, so when a writer for the league jots a few notes about agility it's always good to balance that with a 3-cone time. Watt ran a 6.88. I encourage you to look up the receiver times as a point of reference.

Ps, I know you're not going to listen to me, so while we're on the topic of NFL analysis google Mike Mayock on JJ Watt.

great...and if would be the job of a 2 gap RDE to run 6.88 cone times, then he would be taken by the first 3-4 team on the clock.

my mind is not made up, but I don't see all the excitement over watt....

 

[Snake Eyes]

great...and if would be the job of a 2 gap RDE to run 6.88 cone times, then he would be taken by the first 3-4 team on the clock.

my mind is not made up, but I don't see all the excitement over watt....

I was meh over him but I've really started to warm to him when I think about BB using him more as a OLB/4-3 DE as opposed to a 3-4 DE, Watt is the OLB we're seeking, let someone like Kendrick Ellis be the lane-clogging DE. Once I thought of it that was I was sold.

Look at it this way, what could BB do with Jared Allen on the team? I think this guy can be another Jared Allen.

 

[patchick]

I like the kid. He's a high-effort athlete who'll play in the league for a long time. If we don't already have a linebacker in the fold, he might make a good pick at #74. Like Box said, though, his upside is probably Ninkovich.

There's a lot to like about Acho as an all-around player, but his single biggest downside is that he's not an explosive pass rusher. Given the consensus about the team's needs, that's a pretty big downside.

With his intelligence, agility and frame, Acho might actually project well to ILB in the Pats scheme.

 

[IllegalContact]

I was meh over him but I've really started to warm to him when I think about BB using him more as a OLB/4-3 DE as opposed to a 3-4 DE, Watt is the OLB we're seeking, let someone like Kendrick Ellis be the lane-clogging DE. Once I thought of it that was I was sold.

Look at it this way, what could BB do with Jared Allen on the team? I think this guy can be another Jared Allen.

I don't see the Jared Allen thing.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't see the Jared Allen thing.

I agree, I see it as a Belichick variation of the Julius Peppers thing, with the emphasis on playing the run/collapsing the pocket/clogging throwing lanes/zone blitz, and less on exploding off the edge.

 

[supafly]

I was meh over him but I've really started to warm to him when I think about BB using him more as a OLB/4-3 DE as opposed to a 3-4 DE, Watt is the OLB we're seeking, let someone like Kendrick Ellis be the lane-clogging DE. Once I thought of it that was I was sold.

Look at it this way, what could BB do with Jared Allen on the team? I think this guy can be another Jared Allen.

To be completely honest Snake, I do not believe that he projects very well to a 4-3 DE, and his strengths are obvious as a 3-4 DE. He can also possibly provide some versatility sliding inside during sub-packages though.

 

[supafly]

great...and if would be the job of a 2 gap RDE to run 6.88 cone times, then he would be taken by the first 3-4 team on the clock.

my mind is not made up, but I don't see all the excitement over watt....

Illegal--if you get a chance, check out his NFL network interview from the past couple of days. He has completely sold me on his solid work ethic, and drive, pride, and desire. I know that it's a players job to sell themselves, but you can see an obvious difference when you compare it to many others' question answering. All combine numbers and stats aside (and they're damn impressive), he seems to me like he 'gets it.' If anything, he reminds me of someone who has something to prove--there are zero character issues with this guy, and you cannot say that about everyone, particularly many that are actually in the top 10 projected picks. He is a safe pick for sure.

"I will be the hardest working guy on the field, every single down, every single snap. I will be the hardest working guy in the weight room, the last guy out of the film room." (minor paraphrasing, but this is almost exactly what he said)

Obviously, you don't have to tell me that the character issues and work ethic are only a part of the process--that's a given. However, when you combine this winning attitude with his freak athleticism (some combine numbers comparable to a WR or DB), and the rest of his stats etc, he seems to be one of those Bill Belichick 'safer' type picks. I seriously do not feel that he even has the potential to be a 'bust,' and many in the first rd do. It is my opinion that he will be a major contributor, especially with a coach like BB helping his strengths/weaknesses.

I am absolutely sold that he can be another solid 1st rd Belichick pick, and would be surprised if he wasn't seriously considering him.

 

[MaineMan]

There's a lot to like about Acho as an all-around player, but his single biggest downside is that he's not an explosive pass rusher. Given the consensus about the team's needs, that's a pretty big downside.

With his intelligence, agility and frame, Acho might actually project well to ILB in the Pats scheme.

Which, of course, circles back around to the debate as to whether this is actually a big concern for BB.

 

[patchick]

Which, of course, circles back around to the debate as to whether this is actually a big concern for BB.

It does indeed. But I think the previous Ninkovich comparison comes into play then. If what you want is a smart, hard-working guy with good all-around athleticism who will stay sound in the various parts of his assignment but who doesn't have to be schemed against as a pass rusher, don't we already have him?

 

[bucky]

With his intelligence, agility and frame, Acho might actually project well to ILB in the Pats scheme.

This is a very interesting question. Did BB every say why he played Fletcher at ILB? I would think height/length is the main reason.