Reiss: Pats should consider 4-3 edge rushers in draft

[Sciz]

That is ridiculous. Dont you know that these players play different positions. Jarvis Green is a 5 which is a 3-4 D-end. In 3-4 or 4-3 Matthews and Woodley
play OLB same as McGinest. So what your saying is Green is a better fit at what? DE, I hope so. But in no way is Green a better fit at OLB.

Better fit at DE in a 4-man line. You know, what this whole thread is about.

 

[Brarrell]

You should say, Height requirement, Woodley was not that small weight size coming out.

All i know is these two players are difference makers Woodly and Matthews and we could have one or both of them if we wanted. So if passive defense is what you want to play thats fine if you have corners like Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes in their prime but thats not what you have. When they made the decision not to sign Asante ok i didn't agree then they needed to add playmakers on the defense and no team has had as many picks in the top of he draft than the Pats yet teams like the Jets and Packers seem to be getting the difference makers. They have a franchise QB and a Hall of Fame coach but it just seems like as an organization they are to concerned with 2012 & 13 and beyond, they will find out when you don't have that qb and that coach is gone what life is in most of these NFL cities. This is sports things don't last forever just ask the 49er's and the Chicago Bulls or closer to home the Boston Celtics. I thought after 1986 and the Celtics with the # 1 pick with Len Bias that there were more titles in hand but thats not what happened and it took the Celts until 2008 before their next title thats right 22 years so those guys running the show down there in Gillette better get with the program and start being more aggressive in FA, sign your home grown players before they get to FA and in general stop being stubborn about the type of players you draft it's been 11 years without drafting stud pass rushers all you had to do was watch the games last weekend its called pressure the qb ask Brady about it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

All i know is these two players are difference makers Woodly and Matthews and we could have one or both of them if we wanted.

God sakes. They didn't want them or couldn't take them. Pats could have traded up to get Revis but didn't. You need to move on.

So if passive defense is what you want to play thats fine if you have corners like Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes in their prime but thats not what you have.

The 80s Raiders were actually an attacking/gap penetration defense but that doesn't matter.

When they made the decision not to sign Asante ok i didn't agree then they needed to add playmakers on the defense and no team has had as many picks in the top of he draft than the Pats yet teams like the Jets and Packers seem to be getting the difference makers.

McCourty, Mayo and Merriweather are Pro-Bowl players.

They have a franchise QB and a Hall of Fame coach but it just seems like as an organization they are to concerned with 2012 & 13 and beyond, they will find out when you don't have that qb and that coach is gone what life is in most of these NFL cities.

The Kraft family and Belichick know what it is like to be 5-11. Since 2001, have won more Super Bowls, been to more conference championships and have won more games than any NFL team.

This is sports things don't last forever just ask the 49er's and the Chicago Bulls or closer to home the Boston Celtics. I thought after 1986 and the Celtics with the # 1 pick with Len Bias that there were more titles in hand but thats not what happened and it took the Celts until 2008 before their next title thats right 22 years so those guys running the show down there in Gillette better get with the program and start being more aggressive in FA, sign your home grown players before they get to FA and in general stop being stubborn about the type of players you draft it's been 11 years without drafting stud pass rushers all you had to do was watch the games last weekend its called pressure the qb ask Brady about it.

You need to come to the realization that this team went 14-2 last year and are currently 2-3 impact players away from playing in their 5th Super Bowl in 11 years.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yea I don't know what to make of Moore. I've seen him on his feet but mostly on the ground. Who knows. Willie Mac put his hand on the ground too. So did Vrabes.

My point was that BB "ideally" likes LBs on the larger side. Certainly if the player is a very good one and fit into the system he'd bring him in.

Take as an example James Harrison. I couldn't care less if he was only 6-0 and 245. The man is a wrecking machine and I would want him on this team in a heartbeat.

Exactly...

 

[jays52]

Ok, so by definition we are talking about a 3-pt rusher capable of playing either end, but more likely right. We are talking about a player who possesses exceptional hand replacement, burst, hand technique, a developed counter move who isn't a total liability in the run game. Is that correct? If so, we just described a first round cover-2 43 end or a 9 mil per year veteran.

The unfortunate thing about pass rushers is that they are quite pricey to get. Even a situational sub guy is taken high now due to the proliferation of the spread. Logically, this role should be given to a young, developing three down player who is yet to find comfort with playing off the line. Of course, there's always scouting the CFL and miraculously find the next Cameron Wake, but I'd rather have my portfolio consisting entirely of lottery tickets than bet on replicating that.

So. What are we to do? Well, when the 43 defenses used to rule the land the number one question regarding a prospect was could he stand up and play in the 34. Now, with such an overwhelming demand for guys who can get after it in the two point there are going to be some talented players taken for schemes they don't really fit. 34 olb convert prospects often embody a lot the traits required by a sub edge rusher. Hm. It seems like now the question is one of can he rush with his hand down? Clay Matthews, for example is an extremely poor fit for a hand in the dirt rusher. Tackles would engulf him, and without his initial strike with three yards behind it he wouldn't be able to get them off-balance. With all of the 34's out there, and their impressive diversity there is going to be a major influx of "busted" 'backers who need such a role to maximize their skill-set. They'll be cheap, and there'll be lots of them very soon. Be patient and save your major assets for three down players.

 

[Fencer]

Armchair Quarterback has a point regarding Clay Matthews.

If there's a guy available with your pick about whom it's known with 100% certainty in advance that he will be DPOY runner-up in his second season, you shouldn't trade down from that pick.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Armchair Quarterback has a point regarding Clay Matthews.

If there's a guy available with your pick about whom it's known with 100% certainty in advance that he will be DPOY runner-up in his second season, you shouldn't trade down from that pick.

What the Hell are you talking about ? When did I mention Clay Matthews? Definitely not in this thread. I'm concerned about this years draft not one from two years ago. I guess you must feel that they're all set at the OLB position and don't need to bring in anyone else with all the talent they have there.

 

[patsfan-1982]

OLB's drafted by the pats in the BB era other then TBC have a total of 1.5 sacks lol 1 sack by Jermaine Cunningham, this year and .5 sack by Shawn Crable, this year... the pats need to do something to find a pass rush

 

[Shelterdog]

What the Hell are you talking about ? When did I mention Clay Matthews? Definitely not in this thread. I'm concerned about this years draft not one from two years ago. I guess you must feel that they're all set at the OLB position and don't need to bring in anyone else with all the talent they have there.

So what is your solution other than drafting Von Miller?

I'll give you mine: I attack the problem with numbers. I draft three outside linebackers in the first four rounds. I want Kerrigan/Aldon Smith/Ayers with my first pick, I use a second rounder as well, possibly the first pick if a guy like Houston is available, but if not I use the second second and get Beal/Achoo/Brooks Reed, and then I use a third round pick and get a KJ Wright or Tom Keiser (or Beal/Achoo/Reed). If the later picks are stuck on special teams and don't play OLB in games until 2012 or 2013, so be it.

EDIT: I might also try to sign Ray Edwards from the Vikings; if I did that I only draft two OLBs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Fencer-

What are you getting at?

Do you really think BB would trade out of a draft slot if he knew a particular player was going to develop into a DPOY?

Do you think he would have traded down two times and not get the opportunity to draft McCourty if he knew he would evolve into a shutdown corner in year 1?

BB is a great football mind and has certainly made mistakes. But you are making it out that he should be clairvoyant.

C'mon now.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

So what is your solution other than drafting Von Miller?

I'll give you mine: I attack the problem with numbers. I draft three outside linebackers in the first four rounds. I want Kerrigan/Aldon Smith/Ayers with my first pick, I use a second rounder as well, possibly the first pick if a guy like Houston is available, but if not I use the second second and get Beal/Achoo/Brooks Reed, and then I use a third round pick and get a KJ Wright or Tom Keiser (or Beal/Achoo/Reed). If the later picks are stuck on special teams and don't play OLB in games until 2012 or 2013, so be it.

EDIT: I might also try to sign Ray Edwards from the Vikings; if I did that I only draft two OLBs.

I want the Patriots to invest in talent for the position, not wait around for another decade untill all the stars align and the perfect 6'5 260 4.6 good against the run pass rusher falls into their lap because that's not going to happen. Whether it be Quinn, Aldon Smith, Kerrigan, Miller, Beal or Reed someone will say why he won't fit on the Pats. Can't set the edge, not stout enough, too short, too young, should have stayed in school... etc. I'm not saying all these guys would be perfect fits because they won't be but maybe their talents along with a FA or two can improve the overall quality of the OLB corps. Miller at 6'3 250 is the same size as 75% of the OLB on the roster right now but you'll hear is he's not big enough. I agree with you that they may have to play the numbers game I would like to see at least three new players from draft picks and free agents and I'm not talking about Marquis Murrell types or UDFAs. Use one of the top 33 picks on one, pick Beal or Reed in the third and sign Roth or Wimbley. Obviously if Miller falls in the draft or Woodley becomes an UFA go after them.

 

[Shelterdog]

I want the Patriots to invest in talent for the position, not wait around for another decade untill all the stars align and the perfect 6'5 260 4.6 good against the run pass rusher falls into their lap because that's not going to happen. Whether it be Quinn, Aldon Smith, Kerrigan, Miller, Beal or Reed someone will say why he won't fit on the Pats. Can't set the edge, not stout enough, too short, too young, should have stayed in school... etc. I'm not saying all these guys would be perfect fits because they won't be but maybe their talents along with a FA or two can improve the overall quality of the OLB corps. Miller at 6'3 250 is the same size as 75% of the OLB on the roster right now but you'll hear is he's not big enough. I agree with you that they may have to play the numbers game I would like to see at least three new players from draft picks and free agents and I'm not talking about Marquis Murrell types or UDFAs. Use one of the top 33 picks on one, pick Beal or Reed in the third and sign Roth or Wimbley. Obviously if Miller falls in the draft or Woodley becomes an UFA go after them.

The issue is Miller is 237. He's not 10 pounds light-he's 20-25 pounds light for the position.

 

[jays52]

The issue with Miller is not one of size, but one of watching him
play. Watch him against tackles. It's not pretty.

 

[ATippett56]

Why not draft Cameron Jordan, DE from California with the #17 overall selection, sign Kamerion Wimbley in unrestricted free agency, and draft Sam Acho, DE/OLB from Texas with one of the third round picks?

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

With the other first round pick and the two second round picks then can be utilized to upgrade the offensive line (right offensive guard, left offensive tackle, center).

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

What I don't understand is why some people bash others who want a 4-3 college end as a Patriot, but its O.K. to have a long time 4-3 player like Burgess on the team.

At least with a rookie you might be able to break him in...a long time vet pro is just about permanently set in his ways.

Albert Haynesworth-less is a prime example.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Why not draft Cameron Jordan, DE from California with the #17 overall selection, sign Kamerion Wimbley in unrestricted free agency, and draft Sam Acho, DE/OLB from Texas with one of the third round picks?

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

NFL Draft Scout----Powered By: The Sports Xchange

With the other first round pick and the two second round picks then can be utilized to upgrade the offensive line (right offensive guard, left offensive tackle, center).

I thought You said cam. Jordan was overrated?

 

[patsoxfan]

Better fit at DE in a 4-man line. You know, what this whole thread is about.

So Lets get this straight . You believe that changing the defensive scheme for jarvis green to record 3.5 sacks per season is better than drafting a young talented OLB that records almost half as many sacks in his rookie year as jarvis green's 9 year career. I dont have a problem with the patsies switching to a 4-3. I have a huge problem with the fact that you think jarvis green is a better fit than anyone. By the way, you are the one who compared Green with OLBs. I dont even know how you project Green as a 4-3 D-End he has not played the position (too slow for 4-3 end). I guess the monster stats he has put up over the last 3 years won you over.

 

[Sciz]

So Lets get this straight . You believe that changing the defensive scheme for jarvis green to record 3.5 sacks per season is better than drafting a young talented OLB that records almost half as many sacks in his rookie year as jarvis green's 9 year career. I dont have a problem with the patsies switching to a 4-3. I have a huge problem with the fact that you think jarvis green is a better fit than anyone. By the way, you are the one who compared Green with OLBs. I dont even know how you project Green as a 4-3 D-End he has not played the position (too slow for 4-3 end). I guess the monster stats he has put up over the last 3 years won you over.

We're not talking 4-3 here, specifically, we're talking 4-2-5 or 4-1-6. Subpackages. The Pats spent 57% of their snaps in them. The problem is that the offense can still run the ball when the defense is in subpackages. You can't stick a situational pass-rusher in every time the defense in in a subpackages because that's when they run right at him and get 12 yards on that 2nd and 10 that you sent in the nickel for.

Green was probably a bad example, but I never even said I wanted him specifically. I said a "Jarvis Green type." Less specifically, that's a big DE who can hold his own against the run (in a 4-man line, to whoever mentioned that Green was a liability against the run, which he was in the 3-man line), but still get some pressure (14 sacks combined in 06 and 07). I could have easily said that I prefered a Julius Peppers, Mario Williams, Willie McGinest, Jared Allen, or Justin Tuck type player, but that doesn't get the point across. The Pats don't need an elite pass-rusher like that, they need somebody who get get more than 5 sacks a season (Green's 06 and 07 sack numbers would have led the 2010 Pats) while not being a complete liability to the already questionable subpackage run defense (i.e. Matthews, Miller).

 

[patsoxfan]

We're not talking 4-3 here, specifically, we're talking 4-2-5 or 4-1-6. Subpackages. The Pats spent 57% of their snaps in them. The problem is that the offense can still run the ball when the defense is in subpackages. You can't stick a situational pass-rusher in every time the defense in in a subpackages because that's when they run right at him and get 12 yards on that 2nd and 10 that you sent in the nickel for.

Green was probably a bad example, but I never even said I wanted him specifically. I said a "Jarvis Green type." Less specifically, that's a big DE who can hold his own against the run (in a 4-man line, to whoever mentioned that Green was a liability against the run, which he was in the 3-man line), but still get some pressure (14 sacks combined in 06 and 07). I could have easily said that I prefered a Julius Peppers, Mario Williams, Willie McGinest, Jared Allen, or Justin Tuck type player, but that doesn't get the point across. The Pats don't need an elite pass-rusher like that, they need somebody who get get more than 5 sacks a season (Green's 06 and 07 sack numbers would have led the 2010 Pats) while not being a complete liability to the already questionable subpackage run defense (i.e. Matthews, Miller).

Wow you like to switch up to suit whatever your going to spew. The patsies "dont need an elite pass rusher" well thats great because they dont have one. How do Greens 2010 #s stack up or the 6 other years he did nothing. My grandmother could could have led the patsies in sacks in 2010 (Oh sorry she's better suited for a 3-4 defense and not a 3-2-4-56-45-4-3-3 sub package) Why do they have to go to sub-package? need more DBs cause they cant pressure the QB.

 

[Sciz]

Wow you like to switch up to suit whatever your going to spew. The patsies "dont need an elite pass rusher" well thats great because they dont have one. How do Greens 2010 #s stack up or the 6 other years he did nothing. My grandmother could could have led the patsies in sacks in 2010 (Oh sorry she's better suited for a 3-4 defense and not a 3-2-4-56-45-4-3-3 sub package) Why do they have to go to sub-package? need more DBs cause they cant pressure the QB.

You seem to have reading comprehension problems, so I'm going to break this down for you.

"Jarvis Green type" - A 285 pound defensive end in the Pats' suckpackages. Has had success rushing the passer in subpackages, while not being a huge liability against the run (in 4-man lines). Basically no ability to drop into coverage. More often than not is not named "Jarvis Green." Posters who choose to ignore this fact tend to start Internet arguments.

"Subpackage" - A defensive formation where there are more than 4 defensive backs on the field. Most often used when there are more than 2 receivers on the field (extra CB or two), when there is a very good TE on the field (extra safety or CB), or in general when the pass is deemed a greater threat than the run.

"4-2-5" - A subpackage that the Patriots use a lot. Somtimes it's a safety, sometimes it's a cornerback, but there's a 5th defensive back on the field. The DEs in this formation drop into coverage far less than the 3-4 OLBs do, so a "Jarvis Green type" (who is not necessarily Jarvis Green) is a good fit.

"Elite pass rusher" - A player with more than 10 sacks. The Patriots have had one of these in the last decade.

"Three" - The number of Super Bowls won by a Patriots team that didn't have a player with 10 sacks on it

"Sub runs" - When the offense rushes and the defense is in a subpackage. The Patriots strugged with this this season. Wilfork said it himself.

"Clay Matthews" - A player who can rush the QB, but SUCKS against the run. Would contribute to the sub run problems, not help solve them.

Don't bother responding. I won't be in this thread again.