Cooks comeback route against Dolphins/arithmetic question

[K. Dog]

Baldinger has a nice all-22 excerpt and commentary on a Brendin Cooks comeback route against the Dolphins, where Brady throughs while Cooks's back is still turned:



I have a question about this and similar routes. Here the receiver runs out 16 yards from the line of scrimmage, then comes back two yards to catch the ball 14 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Does the receiver here actually figure out where 14 yards is from the LOS? Isn't that a bit nontrivial if, say, it's an audible or no-huddle situation, and the ball is on the other side of midfield at some fractional yardage? I am quite sure I couldn't quickly and accurately do that kind of arithmetic consistently in a game situation. Remember even Jim Lovell needed a check on his arithmetic and he had more time. Or does he count paces? But if he counts paces, isn't the distance different depending on how he is guarded?

 

[luuked]

First of all you could have just put that question into the rewatch thread. It is exactly the kind of post that people like to discuss there (@Ross12 maybe merge ?).


Cooks doesnt need to do much artihmetic at all. You look where the sticks are and the rest on top is just buffer that is agreed upon after many, many hours of practice. The place he turns could have been at 15 or 14 yards... it ended up being 16 yards. You can see that Brady focuses on him once he passes sticks depth and then throws the ball when Cooks starts to reverse.

I mean when it is reported that a QB and his WR are working on their routes and their chemistry this is exactly what it is. You kinda try to get a feeling for each other on timing dependent routes and how much buffer someone needs for comebacks, how much you can lead him when he starts the comeback portion of the route ect.

Executed perfectly in combination with other players running routes to clear up the area in front of Cooks this is pretty much not possible to defend unless the other team knows it is coming and cheats on other coverages. But then again thats what the earlier progression is for I suppose.

 

[K. Dog]

You can see that Brady focuses on him once he passes sticks depth and then throws the ball when Cooks starts to reverse.

I am not sure if this is accurate. I mean, it is accurate in the sense that when the ball leaves Brady's hand, Cook has started to reverse. But I think Brady has begun his throwing motion and committed to the throw before Cooks starts to reverse.

But this is difficult to gauge for several reasons: (1) it is hard to know from the all-22 when Cooks starts to reverse; (2) it is difficult to know when Brady has committed to a throw.

Brady certain can throw when there is no question of any tell by the receiver, like in that throw to Hogan to the right when Hogan does his out route (I think it was at the first set of downs in the final regular season drive) when he throw before Hogan cuts right. That throw was more spectacular because had Hogan not cut the pass would have been intercepted; here, had Cooks not reversed, the pass would have been incomplete.

 

[luuked]

You are right about the sticks here, I realized that would simplify the arithmetic just after posting my message.

However:


I am not sure if this is accurate. I mean, it is accurate in the sense that when the ball leaves Brady's hand, Cook has started to reverse. But I think Brady has begun his throwing motion and committed to the throw before Cooks starts to reverse.

But this is difficult to gauge for several reasons: (1) it is hard to know from the all-22 when Cooks starts to reverse; (2) it is difficult to know when Brady has committed to a throw.

Brady certain can throw when there is no question of any tell by the receiver, like in that throw to Hogan to the right when Hogan does his out route (I think it was at the first set of downs in the final regular season drive) when he throw before Hogan cuts right. That throw was more spectacular because had Hogan not cut the pass would have been intercepted; here, had Cooks not reversed, the pass would have been incomplete.

I dont see what is inaccurate about what I wrote. I rewatched the gif multiple times it is exactly as I am saying. Once Cooks is past the sticks Brady is focused solely on him and starts the throw the moment he sees Cooks starting to break for the return.

It is not difficult to know when Cooks starts to reverse. It is right in the gif, just look at it. He commits to the throw he starts the throwing motion. I dont understand the confusion.

When you mention Hogan you are comparing two completely different concepts with each other.

With the comeback route you have to anticipate a bit of contact between your WR and the DB so you need some buffer when you throw it. Whereas on the Hogan completion you mention it is a pure timing route, where you more or less know exactly where to throw at what time and any contact that disrupts that essentially gives you a free play due to a holding or PI penalty (unless it happens on the LOS due to press men but then Brady will most probably not even look for that route).

What I agree with is that in both cases you need to have chemistry and trust between the QB and the WR.

 

[dannydyn]

Not a math question.... but rather a chemistry one....

 

[maineman209]

You are right about the sticks here, I realized that would simplify the arithmetic just after posting my message.

However:


I am not sure if this is accurate. I mean, it is accurate in the sense that when the ball leaves Brady's hand, Cook has started to reverse. But I think Brady has begun his throwing motion and committed to the throw before Cooks starts to reverse.

But this is difficult to gauge for several reasons: (1) it is hard to know from the all-22 when Cooks starts to reverse; (2) it is difficult to know when Brady has committed to a throw.

Brady certain can throw when there is no question of any tell by the receiver, like in that throw to Hogan to the right when Hogan does his out route (I think it was at the first set of downs in the final regular season drive) when he throw before Hogan cuts right. That throw was more spectacular because had Hogan not cut the pass would have been intercepted; here, had Cooks not reversed, the pass would have been incomplete.

Brady is actually throwing to a pot, not to the receiver. Both he and the receiver know where that spot is, and both Brady and the receiver have developed a feel for how long after the snap the throw need to be made. Whatever options the receiver might have at the top of the route stem, it's his job to get to that spot in time - and neither early nor late.

That's the essence of a "timing route".

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Cooks looks at the distance between the safety, cornerback and Brady. He then bases his route on the square root of that distance and his cut angle on the cosine of the angle between Brady and the defensive players.

 

[signbabybrady]

Instincts.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

It's well known that Patriot receivers have a Brady telepathy chip implanted. Sometimes the implant gets rejected - see Jackson, Chad.

 

[Bruins29]

Baldinger has a nice all-22 excerpt and commentary on a Brendin Cooks comeback route against the Dolphins, where Brady throughs while Cooks's back is still turned:



I have a question about this and similar routes. Here the receiver runs out 16 yards from the line of scrimmage, then comes back two yards to catch the ball 14 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Does the receiver here actually figure out where 14 yards is from the LOS? Isn't that a bit nontrivial if, say, it's an audible or no-huddle situation, and the ball is on the other side of midfield at some fractional yardage? I am quite sure I couldn't quickly and accurately do that kind of arithmetic consistently in a game situation. Remember even Jim Lovell needed a check on his arithmetic and he had more time. Or does he count paces? But if he counts paces, isn't the distance different depending on how he is guarded?

Edit: just realized the down markers and yardage lines would be a big help here....

Hey How is Gilmore doing? You enjoying that huge plate of crow?

 

[Angelpats]

It's instinctual at this point after running that route hundreds of times.

 

[ALP]

i believe Cooks isn't doing any math, and he isnt "counting" paces per say, he has practiced them so many times the length of the route/how many steps he takes is muscle memory at this point, he knows the spot brady is throwing to, hes just getting to it