Building your draft board position by position - week 5: Linebacker

[dryheat44]

I like Dobbins or Freddie Roach in the middle rounds. Parham would be nice, but would likely go higher.

On the outside, Tapp would be nice. If for some reason Hali falls, I think we'd have to consider him. Lawson is the pick if we go OLB in the first round. On the second day, Wyche would be a nice project.

 

[dryheat44]

And after checking some results of Pro Days, I notice an intriguing development propect for OLB:

John Chick DE Utah St. Chick (6-3¼, 265) ran his 40s in 4.59 and 4.64 seconds. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.26, the three-cone drill in 7.07 and the long shuttle in 11.42. In addition, he had a 36½-inch vertical jump, a 10-foot-1 broad jump and 30 bench presses.

As much as can be told by measurables, this guy fits the prototype. Anybody see him play?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

And after checking some results of Pro Days, I notice an intriguing development propect for OLB:

John Chick DE Utah St. Chick (6-3¼, 265) ran his 40s in 4.59 and 4.64 seconds. He also ran the short shuttle in 4.26, the three-cone drill in 7.07 and the long shuttle in 11.42. In addition, he had a 36½-inch vertical jump, a 10-foot-1 broad jump and 30 bench presses.

As much as can be told by measurables, this guy fits the prototype. Anybody see him play?

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=731&player=37

 

[dryheat44]

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=731&player=37

Hmm. I gather that he only played defense one year. Deep, deep sleeper at best.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hmm. I gather that he only played defense one year. Deep, deep sleeper at best.

Not necessarily, I've found the data on the web page only seems to reflect the current year's work. If you check the Utah State athletics' page and look for his bio you get a better picture combining the 2005 data with whatever Utah St. cares to tell you about his progress. I do that for most of the guys as I'm looking at them and found the two pages paint the best picture with minimum research time.

Here you go, see if this changes things for you..
http://utahstateaggies.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/chick_john00.html

 

[DaBruinz]

Just some more info on John Chick.
NFLDraftScout.com has him listed at OLB. He played OLB for 1 year in college, but DE for the other 3. He racked up 12.5 sacks in 11 games during the 2005 season. That ranked him 5th in the NATION and tops in the Western Athletic Conference.

 

[DarMan]

I like Pusey

Lucious Pusey - lb from Eastern Illinois - we should draft him because of his name

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I like Pusey

Lucious Pusey - lb from Eastern Illinois - we should draft him because of his name

We'll keep an eye out for him in the 2009 Draft.

 

[shirtsleeve]

BB once said what he was looking for in an ILB, but I can't find that quote. Went something like "he's gotta be 6'7", 270# and run real fast...." I'd love to make that quote my sig, but I cant find it.

To the point,I think he was saying he wants someone big enough and tough enough to take guards on at the line, and stuff the run. Yet they also have to be able to provide coverage against the absolute freaks of nature that are these new tight ends. Which means 6'7" and sub 4.5 speed.....

Was going to recommend Kiwi as an ILB prospect, but I don't think he could handle the blocks in the middle, or tackle well enough. Too bad, too, because physically he is just what BB is looking for.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

OLB prospects:

1. A nose for the ball.
2. An ability to play through trash.
3. An ability to fight off blocks.
4. Great tacklers.
5. Speed and/or power off the edge.

Minimum measurables: 250 lbs, 6'3", 4.8-ish 40

Key:
TT = Total Tackles
ST = Solo Tackles
TFL = Tackles For Loss
PD = Passes Defensed
FF = Forced Fumbles
QBH = QB Hurries
ss = Short Shuttle
ls = Long Shuttle
Most players had 11-12 games, I've indicated where some had fewer so the numbers make more sense. I've put too much time into this, so if there is height/weight data or measurable data missing, put it down to fatigue!

Chris Gocong and Mike Kudla from my ILB board are also third round picks here; and I forgot to add Charlton Keith who has some nice stats and is probably a 4-5th round pick for me, patchick has him for folks who want to look back.

This list highlights why I like the depth of the DE/OLB talent in this draft....

1st round: Lawson edges out Tapp due to his speed and height, and his TFL. Tapp is shorter than the minimum height, but he has excellent production against top competition.

Manny Lawson North Carolina State, TT - 58, ST - 33, TFL - 23, Sacks - 10.5, PD - 4, FF - 1, QBH - 14, Blk Kick - 1

Darryl Tapp Virginia Tech, TT - 48, ST - 27, TFL - 16, Sacks - 10, PD - 3, FF - 3, QBH - 14, Blk Kick - 1

Bobby Carpenter 6'3" 255 Ohio State, TT - 49, ST - 33, TFL - 11, Sacks - 8, PD - 2; 4.66 - 40, 34.5†vert, 10’4†broad, 20 - bench, 4.26 - ss, 6.88 - 3cone

2nd round: None

3rd round: Dumervil is below my minimum height limit, but he gets in on production, look at his sacks and FF.

Mark Anderson Alabama, TT - 40, ST - 23, TFL - 18, Sacks - 6.5, FF - 1, QBH - 7, Blk Kick - 1

Elvis Dumervil Louisville, TT - 63, ST - 36, TFL - 24, Sacks - 20, Int - 1, PD - 4, FF - 10, QBH - 2

Parys Haralson Tennessee, TT - 45, ST - 33, TFL - 17, Sacks - 8.5, PD - 1, FF - 3, QBH - 3

4th round:

James Wyche Syracuse, TT - 58, ST - 40, TFL - 8, Sacks - 4.5, PD - 3, FF - 4, QBH - 3, Blk Kick - 1;

Jeremy Mincey 6'3" 262 Florida, TT - 62, ST - 31, TFL - 13, Sacks - 3.5, PD - 2, FF - 1, QBH - 7; 4.65 - 40, 10’1†broad

5th round: This round has two intriguing players who have fantastic QBH numbers, something that BB reportedly loves more than sacks.

Jason Hatcher Grambling, TT - 71, St-50, TFL - 24, Sacks - 11, PD - 1, FF - 1, QBH - 17, Blk Kick - 1

Ryan Neill Rutgers, TT - 71, ST - 30, TFL - 29, Sacks - 10, FF - 3, QBH - 24

Copeland Bryan 6'4", 252 Arizona, TT - 39, ST - 29, TFL - 11, Sacks - 7.5, PD - 5, FF - 1, QBH - 1; 4.80 -40, 34" vert, 10' - broad, 15 - bench, 4.27 - ss, 6.76 - 3cone (9 games)

6th round: This is my sleeper round, I loved Federkeil in the Shrine Game, Dryheat44 noticed Chick's Pro-Day which lead to his statistics and the fact he played LB in 2004 to help out the team, Schable is another Dryheat find who dominated in Div-II.

Daniel Federkiel 6’7†275-285 Calgary, TT - 31, TFL - 12, Sacks - 4, PD - 3, FF - 2; 4.87 - 40, 32†vert, 22 - bench (8 games)

John Chick 6'3" 265 Utah State, TT - 48, ST - 35, TFL - 20, Sacks - 12.5, PD - 2, FF - 2, QBH - 1; 4.59 - 40, 36.5†vert, 10’1†broad, 30 - bench, 4.26 - ss, 7.07 - 3cone, 11.42 - ls

Andrew Schable 6'4" 285 South Dakota, TT - 60, ST - 43, TFL - 22.5 Sacks - 19, PD - 2, FF - 2, Blk Kick - 1

7th round: This is as much UDFA as it is 7th round, Guillory and Lacasse have played some LB, Hawkins is coached by Dwight Freeney's DL coach's son - check the numbers, Syptak played LB and DE in the Hula Bowl and looked interesting, Tollefson also looked good in the Hula Bowl, Farrell popped up when I was researching Schable's numbers.

Brandon Guillory 6'3" 253 Louisiana-Monroe, TT - 41, ST - 37, TFL - 19, Sacks - 10.5, PD - 4, FF - 2, Blk Kick - 2; 4.53 - 40, 19 - bench

Ryan Lacasse Syracuse, TT - 52, ST - 30, TFL - 12, Sacks - 9, PD - 1, FF - 3, QBH - 7;

Brent Hawkins Illinois State, TT - 68, ST - 41, TFL - 31, Sacks - 17, PD - 3, FF - 7

John Syptak 6'2" 250 Rice, TT - 72, ST - 40, TFL - 11, Sacks - 3.5, PD - 1, FF - 2, QBH - 2

David Tollefson 6'4" 255 Northwest Mo. State, TT - 58, ST - 38, TFL - 16.5, Sacks - 12.5, PD - 4, FF - 1, QBH - 5, Blk Kick - 1

Clayton Farrell 6'4" 285 Abilene Christian, TT - 76, ST - 44, TFL - 22.5, Sacks - 10.5, PD - 2, FF - 2, QBH - 4, Safety - 1

Garrett McIntyre 6'3" 262 Fresno State, TT - 29, ST - 20, TFL - 13, Sacks - 7, PD - 3, FF - 1, Blk kick - 1; 4.76 - 40, 32.5†vert, 9’8†broad, 27 - bench, 4.30 - ss, 7.44 - 3cone (Junior)

Adam Roberts 6'1.5" 249 Cincinnati, TT - 50, ST - 30, TFL - 16, Sacks - 6, PD - 2, QBH - 6; 4.71 - 40, 33.5†vert, 9’9†broad, 25 - bench, 4.50 - ss, 7.34 3cone

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Before I go back and try and finish my CB board, here are a couple more LB candidates for the second day. Earls for ILB and Brock for either.

Shomari Earls 6'2" 253 Florida Atlantic, TT - 87, ST - 53, TFL - 7, Sacks - 1, Int - 2, PD - 2, QBH - 1, 4.71-40, looked good in workouts, 33"-vert, 9'5"-broad, 4.23-ss, 11.69-ls, 7.12-3-cone, 16-bench; he has 1-2 int for each year in his NCAA data.

Fredricc Brock 6'4" 245 Texas Southern, TT - 79, St-49, TFL - 17, Sacks - 4.5, QBH - 3, Blk Kick - 1, played well in the Shrine Game, bricks for hands.

 

[dryheat44]

OLB prospects:

1. A nose for the ball.
2. An ability to play through trash.
3. An ability to fight off blocks.
4. Great tacklers.
5. Speed and/or power off the edge.

Minimum measurables: 250 lbs, 6'3", 4.8-ish 40

Key:
TT = Total Tackles
ST = Solo Tackles
TFL = Tackles For Loss
PD = Passes Defensed
FF = Forced Fumbles
QBH = QB Hurries
ss = Short Shuttle
ls = Long Shuttle
Most players had 11-12 games, I've indicated where some had fewer so the numbers make more sense. I've put too much time into this, so if there is height/weight data or measurable data missing, put it down to fatigue!

Chris Gocong and Mike Kudla from my ILB board are also third round picks here; and I forgot to add Charlton Keith who has some nice stats and is probably a 4-5th round pick for me, patchick has him for folks who want to look back.

This list highlights why I like the depth of the DE/OLB talent in this draft....

This is some great work. Thanks.

 

[big mike]

You make a great case for both of these gentlemen at LB. My minimum weight is a personal benchmark based on what I've watched Bruschi, Vrabel, Beisel, Brown, and Ted Johnson do at ILB in the Pats' 3-4. Beisel came over from KC listed at 238 and was pushed around - Chad did much better playing a little heavier and being more experienced. Both were slow to make their reads which combined with Wilfork's slow start killed them inside. But the bottom line is small LBs get beaten up in the Pats' version of 3-4.

I don't think you can make that conclusion based on really only one LB under 240 playing in the position over the past few years. Yes, he was pushed around - but he's also not particularly strong for his size, and making slow reads definitely made an impact. A person doesn't NEED to be 240+ to be a sure tackler, or be able to come off blocks. It can help, but I don't see the value in setting a firm limit like that, when other factors also play a huge role.

240 is my benchmark because it isn't too much of a stretch to figure a college player could add 5-10 lbs of muscle with a top notch training program. I think that explains McGarigle being at 242, up from his 235-ish playing weight in college - he has been working full time with a trainer to prepare himself for the draft. He lacks 5 lbs of Bruschi's listed 247, the question then becomes one of his playing style inside.

Both Hodge and Jackson are only narrowly under 240, and both have frames on which they could pack on some more weight. But, the reality is that most ILBs of any size won't be able to come off a solid block by a 300 pound guard. That's why the DL is so important in keeping OLmen occupied, to free up the ILBs. What then matters is how quickly they can read a play, get to the ball carrier, and make a sure tackle.

Tedy succeeds by being very evasive and avoiding a lot of head-to-head matches with the Gs, he slides around them with movement and good hands. TJ would meet them head on and knock them backwards into the hole;

TJ was not knocking OGs backwards. I don't believe any ILB under 270 could reliably take on 300 LB NFL linemen and win.

Greenway is also borderline, but his physique at the Combine showed lots of room for bulking up - he only benched 16 times at 225, I think Woicik can help him improve that and add another 10 lbs of muscle. But, I also looked at him for his role in the defense - I don't see him as an every down player at 242.

Lack of strength IMO is a concern with Greenway. But, with good training he can definitely improve on that.

Given his coverage skills, he would be good in Phifer's old 3rd down role, and he would do okay as a blitzer to keep offense's honest. Incidentally, his projected role limitations are a big strike against him for being a first round pick by the Pats, not to say never, but I think your looking for a three down player in the first round.

I agree. Personally, I'm still rooting for Bobby Carpenter in round 1 (possibly trading down a bit). Since he and Vrabel have been working out together, and BB seems to like bringing in guys who are "approved" by either current players or coaches he has a solid relationship with, that's gotta look good for Carpenter. Since Vrabel is doing well at ILB, he could stay there, and BB could get a nice OLB in the draft.

All of that aside, you are welcome to disagree and build your draft board the way you see best. I will cheerfully read your critique of my board and try to thoughtfully (my wild imagination, ) provide you with feedback.

Thanks.

Personally, I'm not *rooting* for either of the guys I mentioned - just saying they shouldn't be ignored. I'd like to see us take Carpenter in round 1 (trading down perhaps), and trade up in round 2 to get one of the nice RBs who will be falling due to recent free agent signings/trades. Then a WR in round 3 (perhaps trading up again), and after that it's all icing.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think you can make that conclusion based on really only one LB under 240 playing in the position over the past few years. Yes, he was pushed around - but he's also not particularly strong for his size, and making slow reads definitely made an impact. A person doesn't NEED to be 240+ to be a sure tackler, or be able to come off blocks. It can help, but I don't see the value in setting a firm limit like that, when other factors also play a huge role.

Both Hodge and Jackson are only narrowly under 240, and both have frames on which they could pack on some more weight. But, the reality is that most ILBs of any size won't be able to come off a solid block by a 300 pound guard. That's why the DL is so important in keeping OLmen occupied, to free up the ILBs. What then matters is how quickly they can read a play, get to the ball carrier, and make a sure tackle.

In the Pats system, an ILB needs to be able to go up against guards and hold their own on occasion and not just get eaten up. BB has said as much on numerous occasions. Sorry, but I am going to take BB's word over yours regarding this. Jackson played last year under 230. If he's added 8-10 lbs of muscle, how much more can he add to his frame before it affects his play? How do you know what he's added hasn't already affected his play since he's never played at that weight before?

TJ was not knocking OGs backwards. I don't believe any ILB under 270 could reliably take on 300 LB NFL linemen and win.

You are the only one who thinks that. All his teammates say otherwise. So do most fans. I watched Ted Johnson knock guards around because he got the leverage on them.

Lack of strength IMO is a concern with Greenway. But, with good training he can definitely improve on that.


I agree. Personally, I'm still rooting for Bobby Carpenter in round 1 (possibly trading down a bit). Since he and Vrabel have been working out together, and BB seems to like bringing in guys who are "approved" by either current players or coaches he has a solid relationship with, that's gotta look good for Carpenter. Since Vrabel is doing well at ILB, he could stay there, and BB could get a nice OLB in the draft.


Thanks.

Personally, I'm not *rooting* for either of the guys I mentioned - just saying they shouldn't be ignored. I'd like to see us take Carpenter in round 1 (trading down perhaps), and trade up in round 2 to get one of the nice RBs who will be falling due to recent free agent signings/trades. Then a WR in round 3 (perhaps trading up again), and after that it's all icing.

However, I don't think Bobby Carpenter is that player. I think that a guy like Manny Lawson or Mark Anderson are much better suited to playing the 3-4 OLB position in the Pats lineup than Bobby Carpenter. Also, the knock on Carpenter has been his ability to read and react.

One of the things that the Patriots will be looking for out of their top draftees is leadership ability. IMHO, that rules out Carpenter as Schlegel and Hawk were bigger leaders than he was.

As for trading up for a RB in round 2. No thanks. RB isn't nearly the issue that OLB and wide receiver are.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Bigmike are you out of your mind??? He with the most weight does not determine who will get blown off the line. Try leverage, speed, technique, strength, etc.
I was a 240 lb FB and I had no problem blowing up 300 plus pound DTs, because I could get lower and was generally moving faster than them. If a 240 man bends his knees and hits a 300 plus pound man who is standing up in the chest, I guarantee you the 240 man will plant the bigger man.
Did you even play this game?????

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Mike, thanks for the feedback...I'll disagree in red for you.

I don't think you can make that conclusion based on really only one LB under 240 playing in the position over the past few years. Yes, he was pushed around - but he's also not particularly strong for his size, and making slow reads definitely made an impact. A person doesn't NEED to be 240+ to be a sure tackler, or be able to come off blocks. It can help, but I don't see the value in setting a firm limit like that, when other factors also play a huge role.

This is based on watching NE players and opposing players like Vilma who gets swallowed if a OL gets to him. Additionally, I've done some reading and tried to pay attention to the experts and pundits who've discussed this issue. I can firmly attest that weight is an advantage when you get into a pushing contest.


Both Hodge and Jackson are only narrowly under 240, and both have frames on which they could pack on some more weight. But, the reality is that most ILBs of any size won't be able to come off a solid block by a 300 pound guard. That's why the DL is so important in keeping OLmen occupied, to free up the ILBs. What then matters is how quickly they can read a play, get to the ball carrier, and make a sure tackle.

I set 240 as a lower limit because I'm looking for players who can get up to 250, the lower you go the harder it gets to make that weight with lean tissue. I don't expect those players to play consistently at 240 and I frankly don't expect BB to draft McGarigle or Dobbins because they are so "light".

TJ was not knocking OGs backwards. I don't believe any ILB under 270 could reliably take on 300 LB NFL linemen and win.

My reading before and after his retirement indicated otherwise based on statements from his team mates and opposing players. TJ was an old-style plug the hole with power player like Butkis (sp?), that was why he was considered the Pats' run stopper and retired suddenly with concussion related medical problems. There were numerous stories about OL he knocked on their cans, including one about his splitting someones helmet when they hit. Here's a sample...

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/projo_20050729_29johnson.1d569828.html

Johnson was a throwback at the middle linebacker position. Where many of the game's more ballyhooed inside backers rely heavily on defensive linemen to keep fullbacks, centers and guards off them, Johnson took them all head-on all game long.
"Ted was the ultimate football player," said Patriots linebacker and special-teams ace Larry Izzo. "Whenever he walked off the field, you know that he gave everything he had. He looked like a warrior coming off, blood spattered on his pants. The style of play he had is something we all strive to do."
Former Dallas Cowboys star running back Emmitt Smith once called Johnson one of the toughest middle linebackers he faced. Johnson seemed to also make a dozen memorable stops on Pittsburgh's Jerome Bettis throughout his career. But the hit that may best illustrate Johnson's style came in December 2003, when he took on Dolphins guard Jamie Nails head-on. The impact of the hit split Nails' helmet in two.

One of the things I liked about McGarigle was I saw him take on a 340 lb guard in the Shrine Game and win. I don't think he could have gone head to head like that every play and lasted long, but there are times when you can't avoid contact, so you get low and drive up into the other guy to stand him back on his heels or you get knocked tail over tea kettle when he gets lower.

Lack of strength IMO is a concern with Greenway. But, with good training he can definitely improve on that.


I agree. Personally, I'm still rooting for Bobby Carpenter in round 1 (possibly trading down a bit). Since he and Vrabel have been working out together, and BB seems to like bringing in guys who are "approved" by either current players or coaches he has a solid relationship with, that's gotta look good for Carpenter. Since Vrabel is doing well at ILB, he could stay there, and BB could get a nice OLB in the draft.


Thanks.

Personally, I'm not *rooting* for either of the guys I mentioned - just saying they shouldn't be ignored. I'd like to see us take Carpenter in round 1 (trading down perhaps), and trade up in round 2 to get one of the nice RBs who will be falling due to recent free agent signings/trades. Then a WR in round 3 (perhaps trading up again), and after that it's all icing.

No problem with Carpenter, there are others I like better but he would be good too.

 

[big mike]

Bigmike are you out of your mind??? He with the most weight does not determine who will get blown off the line. Try leverage, speed, technique, strength, etc.

An ILB doesn't line up on the line, does he? No. If a 300 lb OG is running ahead looking to block an ILB a few yards off the line, he has a HUGE advantage just due to his momentum.

I was a 240 lb FB and I had no problem blowing up 300 plus pound DTs, because I could get lower and was generally moving faster than them.

Most likely those DTs weren't moving much since they would have just been coming off OLmen. With an OG coming to hit an ILB, that's only the case if your DLmen are doing a good job of holding the line. I think people have it backwards claiming that Wilfork only made as many tackles as he did because of the ILBs occupying guards. It's the other way around - guys like Wilfork occupying the guards is what allows the ILBs to make tackles in the middle of the field.

If a 240 man bends his knees and hits a 300 plus pound man who is standing up in the chest, I guarantee you the 240 man will plant the bigger man.

It's a shame that 300 pound men don't know how to bend their knees, eh?

You are essentially assuming that the bigger guy doesn't know how to block. That may be true in HS, but not in the NFL. If the 300 pound man knows how to block (assuming it's an OG taking on an ILB), has a decent head of steam, and gets a good hit on the ILB, I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10 a 250 pound ILB is not making the tackle on that play. Sure, he may be able to get a good hit on the OG - but he's only going to plow through that block if the OG doesn't get a good block. If that's the case, why does it matter whether the ILB weighs 238 or 245? A few pounds difference isn't going to matter much if the ILB has the better leverage.

Or do you guys think this is some magic number, where an ILB that weighs 240 or more will be able to take on 300 pound OGs as needed, but a guy who weighs 238 won't?

Did you even play this game?????

Yes. And I also know a thing or two about momentum. Claiming that a guy who is 238 is too light for the position, based strictly on his weight, while a guy who is 250 is fine and can reliably take on OGs, is rather odd. You're claiming weight doesn't matter that much as far as a guy like TJ being able to take on OGs - then why should we only consider ILBs who are at least 240? Does weight matter or doesn't it?

My view is - weight matters, but not so much because the ILBs are going to be taking on OGs frequently, and needing to win that battle. If your DL is doing it's job, the OGs aren't going to get to the ILBs. The ILBs need decent enough size to be able to tackle well, and come off blocks from TEs and FBs, more so than OGs.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

An ILB doesn't line up on the line, does he? No. If a 300 lb OG is running ahead looking to block an ILB a few yards off the line, he has a HUGE advantage just due to his momentum.

Yep, the OG "running" ahead has a momentum advantage, but he has a change of direction disadvantage as he gets to the next level. Additionally, the term "fill the hole" derives from the tactics the LB uses to counter the momentum threat.


Most likely those DTs weren't moving much since they would have just been coming off OLmen. With an OG coming to hit an ILB, that's only the case if your DLmen are doing a good job of holding the line. I think people have it backwards claiming that Wilfork only made as many tackles as he did because of the ILBs occupying guards. It's the other way around - guys like Wilfork occupying the guards is what allows the ILBs to make tackles in the middle of the field.

Granted, the goal of a NT in a 3-4 is to occupy 2 blockers, this also works for the DEs, which is why a healthy 3-4 defense is led in tackles by ILB and SS. But remember the Patriots play 'two-gap' defense:

___ TE __ RT __ RG __ C __ LG __ LT __ TE __
. \ . . / .\ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . /
..OLB.....RDE..RILB....NT....LILB...LDE....OLB....

There are the gap responsibilities for the Patriots' front seven. Lets assume the offense wants to run through the 'A' gap between the C and LG, and they will be blocking straight ahead. Wilfork draws a double team using the C sliding to his left to seal Wilfork away from the play and the RG slides to his left to complete the double team. The LG is responsible for the LILB, the LT slides to his right to screen the LDE and the TE slides to his right to double the LDE. If the RILB fills the hole created by the RG doubling up on the NT, he has a chance to make the tackle in the backfield, if he reads and reacts, he may shoot the crease between the C and the LG as they are occupied with their assignments. The offense can counter that with a lead blocker, but they also have to counter the OLB who usually draws the lead blocker. So the C needs to tie up the NT long enough for the RG to gain control and then release to block the RILB shooting the crease. Wilfork gets a chance at that point to make the tackle if the LBs are occupying the C and LG, and if he can fight off the RG's solo block.

Vince's problem in the first half of the season was trying to do too much, creating a huge cut back gap when the RG sealed him left because he was driving too far left (using the example above). Once he started controlling his gaps, with Bruschi and Vrabel playing their responsibilities, there was nowhere to run. The ILBs have to take on a G or C almost every play.

It's a shame that 300 pound men don't know how to bend their knees, eh?

You are essentially assuming that the bigger guy doesn't know how to block. That may be true in HS, but not in the NFL. If the 300 pound man knows how to block (assuming it's an OG taking on an ILB), has a decent head of steam, and gets a good hit on the ILB, I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10 a 250 pound ILB is not making the tackle on that play. Sure, he may be able to get a good hit on the OG - but he's only going to plow through that block if the OG doesn't get a good block. If that's the case, why does it matter whether the ILB weighs 238 or 245? A few pounds difference isn't going to matter much if the ILB has the better leverage.

That decent head of steam needs to be reached in 2 steps, because that LB is also moving ahead too, so that five yards off the line the ILB is playing gets eaten up quickly - you make the case for the importance of the 10 yd split when OL run the 40, you either want really quick OL who get some steam up in that two steps, or you want the road graders who have the hands and arm strength to overcome their slower starts.

The LB size matters because the larger LBs are going to be carrying the muscle to engage the OLs and the extra weight to give them a base to use leverage when they win the leverage battle. Imagine 205 lb Eugene Wilson winning the leverage battle with a 300 lb lineman. If the OL is off balance Geno may be able to use that leverage to move him a step or two, but in most cases that 300 lb OL is going to recover and win that battle leverage or not. 253 lb Ted Johnson or 263 lb Mike Vrabel are more likely to keep the leverage advantage and win the battle.

Or do you guys think this is some magic number, where an ILB that weighs 240 or more will be able to take on 300 pound OGs as needed, but a guy who weighs 238 won't?

The magic number I use is 250 - Rosie Colvin's weight - the question isn't whether 238 or 240 are too light, they both are. The question is which player is more likely to bulk up enough in an NFL training program. You use the example of 238 and 240, I set a minimum weight limit of 240, I think 10 lbs is attainable by 'most' 240 lb guys. Each extra pound below that just increases the difficulty. Could I foresee a 238 lb guy make the 12 lb gain? Sure, but you listed D'qwell Jackson who was 'cut' if I correctly remember him. 242 lb Chad Greenway was a skinny bubba who can probably put on another 15 lbs of muscle. A 'cut' 242 lb player may not be able to add the 8 lbs I'm looking for.


Yes. And I also know a thing or two about momentum. Claiming that a guy who is 238 is too light for the position, based strictly on his weight, while a guy who is 250 is fine and can reliably take on OGs, is rather odd. You're claiming weight doesn't matter that much as far as a guy like TJ being able to take on OGs - then why should we only consider ILBs who are at least 240? Does weight matter or doesn't it?

I hope I've answered this question above, not every 250 lb player is capable of playing the position. It is the weight our 'successful' ILBs have been playing at, so it becomes the weight standard I use to assess a player's potential for ILB. If you look at my ILB list - 2 @ 242, 2 @ 245/6, 1 @ 253, and 2 over 260 - the two most athletic guys are the 260 pounders and they are my favorites. The two 242 pounders are quite different, Greenway is skinny and has room to put on the weight; McGarigle may be maxed out, I didn't see his weigh-in, but he is an excellent, instinctive MLB who at minimum will be a great Special Teams player. Both of your players are also excellent instinctive players who can be great Special Teams players, but they fell below my minimum weight. You have to set a minimum for your measurables and select outside only in extraordinary circumstances. If you want to set a lower weight standard I will retain the right to disagree. I have no power to stop you, and I'm not going to say your wrong. If we both look at this as a fun exercise and a chance to learn from observation we'll enjoy the draft.

My view is - weight matters, but not so much because the ILBs are going to be taking on OGs frequently, and needing to win that battle. If your DL is doing it's job, the OGs aren't going to get to the ILBs. The ILBs need decent enough size to be able to tackle well, and come off blocks from TEs and FBs, more so than OGs.

Your view is more consistent with the aim of a 4-3 defense. Ray Lewis made a big deal out of the new Defensive Coordinator going back to a 4-3 because it put an extra DL in front to keep him clean. BB's base 3-4 relies on bigger ILBs who aren't expected to run sideline to sideline, but are expected to shed the blocks of offensive linemen. Bruschi does it with movement, Vrabel does it with power and leverage, but watching tape of every game last year, both ILBs were occupied with an OL on nearly every running play.

 

[big mike]

Your view is more consistent with the aim of a 4-3 defense. Ray Lewis made a big deal out of the new Defensive Coordinator going back to a 4-3 because it put an extra DL in front to keep him clean. BB's base 3-4 relies on bigger ILBs who aren't expected to run sideline to sideline, but are expected to shed the blocks of offensive linemen. Bruschi does it with movement, Vrabel does it with power and leverage, but watching tape of every game last year, both ILBs were occupied with an OL on nearly every running play.

My point though overall is that I don't think you should set a hard and fast weight limit, as there are other factors that come into play - as you mentioned, having the frame to put on more weight can throw the current weight out the window. A bigger guy who isn't as mobil to be able to come off of blocks may not be as good as a smaller, but still very strong guy (i.e. Bruschi) who has the mobility to come off blocks better.

A guy who is 6'3" and currently 235 lbs, with a large frame, could easily get up to 250 or so. If he has good technique and mobility, I don't think he should be ruled out because of his current weight - whereas a person who's maybe 245 but has a frame not very conducive to putting on much more weight would be included. That was really my main/only point - that just setting a weight limit could end up ruling out people who could end up fitting in very well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My point though overall is that I don't think you should set a hard and fast weight limit, as there are other factors that come into play - as you mentioned, having the frame to put on more weight can throw the current weight out the window. A bigger guy who isn't as mobil to be able to come off of blocks may not be as good as a smaller, but still very strong guy (i.e. Bruschi) who has the mobility to come off blocks better.

A guy who is 6'3" and currently 235 lbs, with a large frame, could easily get up to 250 or so. If he has good technique and mobility, I don't think he should be ruled out because of his current weight - whereas a person who's maybe 245 but has a frame not very conducive to putting on much more weight would be included. That was really my main/only point - that just setting a weight limit could end up ruling out people who could end up fitting in very well.

6'3" and 235 on a large frame may merit a waiver, but I'm not a scout, I just play Director of College Scouting on Patsfans.com for fun. To save time, I have a set of minimum measurables I start with. McGarigle weighed-in at 235 for the Shrine Game, he played well enough for me to take another look before putting together my final board - he was up to 242 so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. If he had been less than 240 he would have gone on my Special Teams board. D'Qwell Jackson didn't impress me as much in the Senior Bowl and he didn't make my weight limit, he's not on my board. If you like 235 that's cool, we're not going to change each other's minds at this point, maybe Chris Price will get to write an inside the war room story on the Patriots' this summer to make us all smarter. :rocker: