Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

Deus Irae · Feb 5, 2018

robertweathers said:
Because Malcolm ****ed up in a major way.

If you want to sit there and put BB on a spit you should also be open to doing the same thing to Malcolm.

There is a reason this franchise is a dynasty and I guarantee one of them is a coach not caving in and letting a malcontent player skate along without reprocussions.

You want BB to run this team you need to accept the whole package. A code and core tenants to a culture are not things to arbitrarily pick and choose when to apply them.

You went all the way down the rabbit hole in this thread.

cmasspatsfan · Feb 5, 2018

Kargetina said:
He couldn’t have humiliated him more than suiting him and then telling him before the game that he’s not playing, creating a situation where a guy that was an All Pro last year is crying his eyes out in front of 100 million people because he isn’t good enough but All World CB Johnson Bademosi is.

If Butler was inactive i could understand the code of silence but he was ready to play with his helmet on, and he didn’t either because he wasn’t good enough in Belichicks eyes or because he was punished...infront of the whole world.

And the “in case of injury” thing doesn’t make any sense under scrutiny. So let’s say Gilmore got injured on the first play, and then Butler plays the entire game...so his transgression couldn’t have been that bad if he could play the entire game under a particular circumstance, was it?

On the other hand if he was benched because the coaches actually believed he wasn’t the best option...and still didn’t make an adjustment during the second half where Philly scored on every drive...well there’s not much to say about it really.

Yes he could have.

Deus Irae · Feb 5, 2018

Brady2Gronk said:
There really has to be more to the story. I find it hard to believe with how many hours Bill puts in preparing throughout the season that he would risk losing the biggest game of the year due to a couple of poor practices and a minor rule violation by benching his Cb2 for an entire game. Especially when the defense is getting embarrassed.

If he did he is an idiot, but I don't think Bill is an idiot and there is more to the story.

Whether BB was an idiot about this is something I don't have the info to judge at this time, but everyone is an idiot sometimes, and BB is no exception.

raduray · Feb 5, 2018

AndyJohnson said:
A player did something that caused him to be disciplined by benching, let his team down and they lose and people want to blame the guy who filed out the punishment rather than the guy who let his team down. Remarkable.

This was the SB. All that mattered was winning. Butler was gone next year anyway. The defense BB had in there was a sieve. It wouldn't have been any worse with Butler in there and it might have been better. All we needed was one more stop and the outcome would have been different. But we'll never know because BB, in his pettiness, decided to cut off his nose in order to spite his face.

Belichick took his eye off the prize and my respect for him is diminished.

chumpchange · Feb 5, 2018

cmasspatsfan said:
Dumbass we've been in the hunt for 17 years because of BB. Some of you fan boys are beyond obtuse.

Correction: we've been in the hunt for 17 years because of Tom Brady.

The one year BB didn't have him, we failed to win the AFC East and missed the playoffs entirely. Remember? And then Tom returned and we've won the AFC East and punched a ticket to the postseason every year since.

IcyPatriot · Feb 5, 2018

raduray said:
This was the SB. All that mattered was winning. Butler was gone next year anyway. The defense BB had in there was a sieve. It wouldn't have been any worse with Butler in there and it might have been better. All we needed one more stop and the outcome would have been different. But we'll never know because BB, in his pettiness, decided to cut off his nose in order to spite his face.

Belichick took his eye off the prize and my respect for him is diminished.

I partly agree ...
However we cannot assume the Eagles would have called the same plays with Butler in there.
Butler could have played and the Eagles could have been more aggressive ... just saying this is something we can discuss and have opinions on but I am not comfortable saying Butler would have been the difference ... if we had gotten to Foles with more pressure then I would be more inclined to think Butler definitely would have made a difference. Even with covered receivers Foles made some terrific throws.

StockingAnarchyNumber12 · Feb 5, 2018

chumpchange said:
Correction: we've been in the hunt for 17 years because of Tom Brady. The one year BB didn't have him, we failed to win the AFC East and missed the playoffs entirely. Remember? And then Tom returned and we've won the AFC East and punched a ticket to the postseason every year since.

Nah. Bill is a great coach and went 11-5 that season without Brady.

raduray · Feb 5, 2018

IcyPatriot said:
I partly agree ...
However we cannot assume the Eagles would have called the same plays with Butler in there.
Butler could have played and the Eagles could have been more aggressive ... just saying this is something we can discuss and have opinions on but I am not comfortable saying Butler would have been the difference ... if we had gotten to Foles with more pressure then I would be more inclined to think Butler definitely would have made a difference. Even with covered receivers Foles made some terrific throws.

I don't disagree, but what we had there wasn't working and Belichick failed to make a personnel adjustment that MIGHT have made a difference. Certainly couldn't have been any worse. Why not even try?

CISGS · Feb 5, 2018

StockingAnarchyNumber12 said:
Nah. Bill is a great coach and went 11-5 that season without Brady.

After going 18-1 the year prior with Brady.
Cassel made a Pro Bowl without Belichick.
Belichick got fired without Brady.

IcyPatriot · Feb 5, 2018

raduray said:
I don't disagree, but what we had there wasn't working and Belichick failed to make a personnel adjustment that MIGHT have made a difference. Certainly couldn't have been any worse. Why not even try?

The topic and mystery for a long time for sure ...

Deus Irae · Feb 5, 2018

IcyPatriot said:
I partly agree ...
However we cannot assume the Eagles would have called the same plays with Butler in there.
Butler could have played and the Eagles could have been more aggressive ... just saying this is something we can discuss and have opinions on but I am not comfortable saying Butler would have been the difference ... if we had gotten to Foles with more pressure then I would be more inclined to think Butler definitely would have made a difference. Even with covered receivers Foles made some terrific throws.

We don't know why Butler was on the bench. We do know that, for at least most of the year

Butler > Rowe
Butler > Bademosi

It's naive to think that having the better player wouldn't have increased the odd chances of victory, unless the reason for the move was rooted in something particular that would plainly have influenced his play for that particular game. Two of the current speculations, "Butler was sick and didn't practice well during the week" and "Butler was drunk and yelled at coaches the night before", both fall short of that threshold.

StockingAnarchyNumber12 · Feb 5, 2018

CISGS said:
After going 18-1 the year prior with Brady.
Cassel made a Pro Bowl without Belichick.
Belichick got fired without Brady.

And Brady went 10-6 the next season.

Todd Bradley · Feb 5, 2018

It won’t happen, but the fans deserve an honest answer from Belichick as to why a Pro Bowl corner was voluntarily sat throughout an entire Super Bowl. A game where your defense was historically bad.....like worst all-time bad.

There’s absolutely no excuse for what happened. It cost us a title.

chumpchange · Feb 5, 2018

StockingAnarchyNumber12 said:
Nah. Bill is a great coach and went 11-5 that season without Brady.

11-5 is a respectable record, and Bill is a brilliant coach, but coaching is not as important as the players on the field. The final result of that one Brady-less season is Bill's best-in-the-league genius wasn't enough to get us into the postseason or even carry our division when he didn't have Tom throwing. Bill's great, but Tom is the most important component on this team.

Soliel · Feb 5, 2018

We probably won’t ever find out. I have some thoughts on all this because without a solid reason, there’s no sense in it. There has to be a real good reason like Stallworth was saying. If that’s true, everything makes sense again.

chumpchange · Feb 5, 2018

CISGS said:
After going 18-1 the year prior with Brady.
Cassel made a Pro Bowl without Belichick.
Belichick got fired without Brady.

Just look at Kraft's allegiance. He's all about Tom and came out vocally in support of him over Bill. Kraft knows who wins him his rings.

K. Dog · Feb 5, 2018

One key to all this is: what was the exact offer that the Patriots made to Butler to retain him during the last off-season?

We know in the press there are two stories: Butler seems to think the offer was unreasonable; and the Patriots have been quoted as saying Butler was "asking for the moon."

To my knowledge, the exact amount of the offer was never made public. And as is well-known, after Butler rejected the offer, the Pats made Gilmore a big offer, and I predicted then that the Gilmore off could hurt Butler's attitude ongoing.

*If* the Patriots offer was unreasonable, then Butler's reaction to his relatively small salary compared to his contributions for the last three years was understandable.

StockingAnarchyNumber12 · Feb 5, 2018

chumpchange said:
11-5 is a respectable record, and Bill is a brilliant coach, but coaching is not as important as the players on the field. The final result of that one Brady-less season is Bill's best-in-the-league genius wasn't enough to get us into the postseason or even carry our division when he didn't have Tom throwing. Bill's great, but Tom is the most important component on this team.

Nobody should hold that season against Bill. Brady likely gets us into the playoffs, but 11-5 is still 11-5 and better than some Brady led seasons.

Deus Irae · Feb 5, 2018

StockingAnarchyNumber12 said:
And Brady went 10-6 the next season.

The 2009 team was a revamped team with huge chemistry issues, Brady coming off of ACL surgery, and not really comparable. The 2007 and 2008 teams, particularly on offense, were comparable.

It's folly for anyone to try to minimize the Brady difference. The reality is that, even at the very beginning (2001), Belichick was 0-2 without Brady as his starter, and 14-3 with Brady as his starter. The reality is also that BB is 55-63 in the regular season, without Brady as his starter (36-44 in Cleveland and 19-19 in New England).

Once can come up with reasons and/or excuses for the differences, but ignoring them and/or minimizing the Brady effect is not the way to go.

chumpchange · Feb 5, 2018

StockingAnarchyNumber12 said:
And Brady went 10-6 the next season.

And won the AFC East. And went to the playoffs. On a newly-repaired ACL.

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