GOAT QB discussions must include Johnny U.

[Uptown]

I'd take Brees is any conditions. On Mars in a windstorm. He's too underrated here while Elway rides on myth.

I'm curious after everything on Elway what it would take for someone to admit they're wrong and he's super overrated?

I love Brees as well, but I’ve seen him perform poorly too many times in cold weather AND home games in the playoffs with superior teams. Tough to say who exactly is the better QB, but I’d take the HOF who carried teams in tough situations, inclement weather, tougher era, who is mobile & won. Elway’s stats aren’t great at all, but it was a different era of football. Hell, Brees can’t even win at the Superdome with weapons & a top defense in THIS era. If that’s the case, then Brees is overrated as well. Stat padder..

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'd take Brees is any conditions. On Mars in a windstorm.

Would you take him in the playoffs?
Would you keep him during layoffs?
In a box? With a fox?

Most people here have Brees as a borderline top 10 QB (maybe somewhere in the 8-12 range) with the understanding he will likely move up once he retires and that perspective is given (like any active QB besides Brady, who we are allowed to be homerish about.)

What is wrong with that ranking?

Also, BGC, I think you need to consider the Iconic Moments aspects of these guys, too. Brees is lacking there; Manning is lacking there. That's one where Elway moves up lists...and no, this isn't just media narrative. The stats of players careers tend to have less long-term impact; the stories of their careers tend to have more long-term impact. I'm not saying Eli Manning belongs in the top 3, but you combine dominance with big-time postseason moments.

 

[patsfan13]

Johnny U may not be the goat, but he invented the position of the Modern QB, the same way Orr invent the Modern Defenseman in Hockey and Cousy Invented the Modern Notion of a point Guard..

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Would you take him in the playoffs?
Would you keep him during layoffs?
In a box? With a fox?

Most people here have Brees as a borderline top 10 QB (maybe somewhere in the 8-12 range) with the understanding he will likely move up once he retires and that perspective is given (like any active QB besides Brady, who we are allowed to be homerish about.)

What is wrong with that ranking?

Also, BGC, I think you need to consider the Iconic Moments aspects of these guys, too. Brees is lacking there; Manning is lacking there. That's one where Elway moves up lists...and no, this isn't just media narrative. The stats of players careers tend to have less long-term impact; the stories of their careers tend to have more long-term impact. I'm not saying Eli Manning belongs in the top 3, but you combine dominance with big-time postseason moments.

I'm sorry Ice but this doesn't make sense regarding Elway. He was never dominant or even close to it. He was mediocre most of his career.

He wasn't good in the playoffs or SB.
Stats fade but campfire stories and iconic moments are more impactful?
Stats can be adjusted and in context paint a picture through eras. A much more objective picture than "iconic moments" hahaha c'mon Ice that's weak.

Look its a dumb list. I'm honestly not trying to change opinion. When hit with new info I have no problem revisiting or changing my opinion.

In this case, Elway's case for top tier all-time. There's nothing to support it besides people's feelings. Usually, in most other aspects of life you want proof. Something you can point to and say "that's why he's top 10". Again to each their own. I just wouldn't consider a guy who was 8th-10th out of his own draft class to be considered top 10.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm sorry Ice but this doesn't make sense regarding Elway. He was never dominant or even close to it. He was mediocre most of his career.

He wasn't good in the playoffs or SB.
Stats fade but campfire stories and iconic moments are more impactful?
Stats can be adjusted and in context paint a picture through eras. A much more objective picture than "iconic moments" hahaha c'mon Ice that's weak.

Look its a dumb list. I'm honestly not trying to change opinion. When hit with new info I have no problem revisiting or changing my opinion.

In this case, Elway's case for top tier all-time. There's nothing to support it besides people's feelings. Usually, in most other aspects of life you want proof. Something you can point to and say "that's why he's top 10". Again to each their own. I just wouldn't consider a guy who was 8th-10th out of his own draft class to be considered top 10.

He was regarded by scouts as a generational talent. In first five years the Broncos won 3 AFC titles and he won an MVP award in the process. Perennial pro bowler. In the 90s he was voted all-decade first team and the Broncos won two Super Bowls, one of which he was the MVP. 8th-10th best QB of his own draft class??

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

He was regarded by scouts as a generational talent. In first five years the Broncos won 3 AFC titles and he won an MVP award in the process. Perennial pro bowler. In the 90s he was voted all-decade first team and the Broncos won two Super Bowls, one of which he was the MVP. 8th-10th best QB of his own draft class??

All you're giving me is team success. Elway actually had decent teams around him in a time when the AFC was a mess. He was mediocre his first 10 years. Bad in the playoffs and Superbowls.

His MVP award .... He threw for 3100 and 19 TD. Hardly MVP #'s even then. Montana and Rice were both far more deserving.

0 all pro selections

19 different QBS started 100 games between 83 & 98. Elway ranks 16th in comp %. 13th TD %. 10th INT %. 14th QB rating. 10th YPA. 11th ANY/A.

Again that's just during that time ... his peers so to speak? And the best he did was 10th in certain categories. Nevermind when you look at other #"s or compare him to today's players.

I was actually surprised at how blah his #'s stack up.

He has longevity but without the peaks/prime years. I cant put someone that close to the GOAT who was so average and frankly lucky his career ended the way it did.

 

[Zarozzor]

At this point I think I'm just going to have a top 10 quarterbacks who played the bulk of their career in the Super Bowl era list. I'm still going to have my "Real" top 10 list that has guys like Graham, Unitas, Starr but when talking and debating with people in real life and on some of the other forums, I'll just give them my Super Bowl era list. Just seems easier than me having to answer for the 100th time "why do you have 2-3 old guys on your list? The game was too different back then"

 

[RDS11]

All you're giving me is team success. Elway actually had decent teams around him in a time when the AFC was a mess. He was mediocre his first 10 years. Bad in the playoffs and Superbowls.

His MVP award .... He threw for 3100 and 19 TD. Hardly MVP #'s even then. Montana and Rice were both far more deserving.

0 all pro selections

19 different QBS started 100 games between 83 & 98. Elway ranks 16th in comp %. 13th TD %. 10th INT %. 14th QB rating. 10th YPA. 11th ANY/A.

Again that's just during that time ... his peers so to speak? And the best he did was 10th in certain categories. Nevermind when you look at other #"s or compare him to today's players.

I was actually surprised at how blah his #'s stack up.

He has longevity but without the peaks/prime years. I cant put someone that close to the GOAT who was so average and frankly lucky his career ended the way it did.

It's obvious you have not seen the guy play.

Elway took 3 average Broncos teams to Super Bowls. Bet you cant name any if the RB nor WR that played on those teams.

But in the end, I'll defer to Belichick, who once said he had to design special defenses against Elway because he was that special.

For these debates, I've noticed that volume stats are better for players that are still playing. Tarkenton was much higher ranked while he was on top of every passing statistic. Nowadays, nobody would rank him top 10. I suspect the same thing will happen to Brees.

 

[Zarozzor]

I’ve always thought TD% was a terrible stat. Example

A quarterback who
Hands the ball off down the field until the goal line
Goes 1/1 4 Yards TD Pass

Gets credit

A quarterback who
Goes 6/8 55 Yards
Hands the ball off at the goal line

Gets no credit

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It's obvious you have not seen the guy play.

Elway took 3 average Broncos teams to Super Bowls. Bet you cant name any if the RB nor WR that played on those teams.

But in the end, I'll defer to Belichick, who once said he had to design special defenses against Elway because he was that special.

For these debates, I've noticed that volume stats are better for players that are still playing. Tarkenton was much higher ranked while he was on top of every passing statistic. Nowadays, nobody would rank him top 10. I suspect the same thing will happen to Brees.

Of course I saw him play.

Those 80's teams he was on weren't average. Elway played with a better defense and supporting cast than Marino & Favre. Their defense was actually pretty good & offense had guys like Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Bobby Humphrey could play. Also again look at that defense. Not all-time great but more than good enough to win. Guys like Atwater, Dennison and Carreker ...


I haven't heard a viable case for Elway yet from anyone here in terms of playing the position. It's all team wins, rings etc.

Good-very good QB but not in my top 10 or 12.

 

[Steve102]

1. Brady















2. Graham
3. Montana
4. Starr
5. Unitas
6. Manning
7. Staubach
8. Elway
9. Young
10. Rodgers

Fixed it for you.

 

[tasmlab]

Why was the Unitas bum always behind in the fourth quarter? He should have been winning them by half time like a proper GOAT.

 

[RDS11]

Those 80's teams he was on weren't average. Elway played with a better defense and supporting cast than Marino & Favre. Their defense was actually pretty good & offense had guys like Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Bobby Humphrey could play. Also again look at that defense. Not all-time great but more than good enough to win. Guys like Atwater, Dennison and Carreker ...

It's okay, we have different opinions on Elway, Marino and Favre supporting cast during their early years.

I believe Sterling Sharpe > Duper + Clayton > Johnson + Jackson

Plus Favre had Reggie White, Sean Jones, LeRoy Butler and Eugene Robinson on D during his Super Bowl years. For Elway, Atwater (and Humphrey) was drafted in 1989, he wasn't on the 1986 and 1987 teams that went to the Super Bowl. And Humphrey had 2 good years, was beaten out by the immortal Gaston Green, and out of the league by age 27. Shannon Sharpe was probably the first perennial Pro Bowler Elway had, and Sharpe was drafted in 1990.

The volume in passing stats is nice to build a pedigree, but for QBs, wins and championships are more important. Because QB is the most important position (probably in all of sports), and teams can't win constantly with average QBs. For a time, Elway was the QB with the most wins in league history, and he is still 2nd with 5 Super Bowl appearances.

To me, saying Elway wasn't dominant is trying to re-write history (similar to that other thread when we are supposed to believe the Patriots have always been relevant throughout their 60 years history). Belichick has said Elway was one of the most dangerous player he has ever faced. He also voted to include Elway in the top 100 players of all-time. And using some statistics 25 years after the fact doesn't give the full picture; heck, if you remove the first 4 years from Marino's resume, the rest of his career doesn't look quite as spectacular : 278 TDs versus 185 INTs (no season more than 30 TDs), 58.9% completion percentage...that's not very far from Bledsoe's career numbers. The difference between Marino and Elway is that when they had a great supporting cast around them (Marino at the start of his career, Elway at the end), Elway won championships but Marino couldn't.

As for Favre versus Elway : a prime Favre, during his MVP years, was a 11-points favorite going into Super Bowl 32 over Elway's Broncos. It says to me that everyone thought the Packers, at the time, had the better team. Yet Favre lost, Elway won. Shouldn't that be a big knock against the league's MVP playing on the better team ?

One final thing that didn't help Elway : Dan Reeves. Reeves was a good coach, but he was very conservative. Shula and Holmgren were much more willing to use the passing game than Reeves was. There's more to it than that, but basically it was mostly running until Elway had to save the day. Reeves career winning percentage with Elway : 62.0%...without Elway : 46.7%.

 

[fnordcircle]

Doesn't matter since we all know that QB Lamar Jackson forever changed the position according to the top football scientist HC of the Baltimore Ravens.

Unitas' only legacy now is a haircut you could set your watch to.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It's okay, we have different opinions on Elway, Marino and Favre supporting cast during their early years.

I believe Sterling Sharpe > Duper + Clayton > Johnson + Jackson

Plus Favre had Reggie White, Sean Jones, LeRoy Butler and Eugene Robinson on D during his Super Bowl years. For Elway, Atwater (and Humphrey) was drafted in 1989, he wasn't on the 1986 and 1987 teams that went to the Super Bowl. And Humphrey had 2 good years, was beaten out by the immortal Gaston Green, and out of the league by age 27. Shannon Sharpe was probably the first perennial Pro Bowler Elway had, and Sharpe was drafted in 1990.

The volume in passing stats is nice to build a pedigree, but for QBs, wins and championships are more important. Because QB is the most important position (probably in all of sports), and teams can't win constantly with average QBs. For a time, Elway was the QB with the most wins in league history, and he is still 2nd with 5 Super Bowl appearances.

To me, saying Elway wasn't dominant is trying to re-write history (similar to that other thread when we are supposed to believe the Patriots have always been relevant throughout their 60 years history). Belichick has said Elway was one of the most dangerous player he has ever faced. He also voted to include Elway in the top 100 players of all-time. And using some statistics 25 years after the fact doesn't give the full picture; heck, if you remove the first 4 years from Marino's resume, the rest of his career doesn't look quite as spectacular : 278 TDs versus 185 INTs (no season more than 30 TDs), 58.9% completion percentage...that's not very far from Bledsoe's career numbers. The difference between Marino and Elway is that when they had a great supporting cast around them (Marino at the start of his career, Elway at the end), Elway won championships but Marino couldn't.

As for Favre versus Elway : a prime Favre, during his MVP years, was a 11-points favorite going into Super Bowl 32 over Elway's Broncos. It says to me that everyone thought the Packers, at the time, had the better team. Yet Favre lost, Elway won. Shouldn't that be a big knock against the league's MVP playing on the better team ?

One final thing that didn't help Elway : Dan Reeves. Reeves was a good coach, but he was very conservative. Shula and Holmgren were much more willing to use the passing game than Reeves was. There's more to it than that, but basically it was mostly running until Elway had to save the day. Reeves career winning percentage with Elway : 62.0%...without Elway : 46.7%.

Even though I disagree with every word, good post. Thoughtful and genuine.

The whole supporting cast arguments are kinda boring imo. In this case anyway.

None (Favre, Marino, Elway) had great weapons but they weren't the JV team either. So whoever had the best or worst, the margins are thin there.

And Elway needed guys like Neil Smith, Rod Smith, T Davis, McCaffrey, Romo ...

It's interesting you mention "volume" stats bc honestly that's one of the things Elway has going for him. He played a long time and eventually acquired some decent stats but decent is good enough to be that close to the GOAT imo.

I listed his stats near by and statistical he's barely a top 10 QB from his class and that's being nice. Not my opinion, just stats. He's inferior when you compare him to his peers and guys like Manning, Brees. That's not a top 10 QB imo.

Next... QB Wins are not a stat. I can tell you from actually talking to players, that's not a pov or something they share.

I'm literally thinking of countless times QBs would play awful and win. We've seen teams have a really good offense, good enough defense but putrid ST so they miss the playoffs. Kickers deciding the biggest games of all time.

It's just a casual fan stat tbh. If you wanna site go ahead. Lets look at the list though ...

Philip Rivers is top 10 and counting. I actually like him but top 10? No way.

Eli is top 10 I believe and Big Ben has to be close if not there.

Are they top 10-12-15?

Matt Ryan is very close and after him you get greats like Flacco and McNabb.

All with more wins than Steve Young. So again it's a useless stat if you're being objective.

Also you brought up Elway/Favre SB ... Look at how he performed in those games. He was awful. 12-22 for 123 and a INT. 3/8 TD/INT in SB.

Look I respect Elway and loved watching him play. I think he's in that 15-20 range though as opposed to top 5-10.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Best Team Sports Players Ever

1. Elway
2. Ruth
3. Jordan
4. Brady
5. Gretzky

 

[patsfan13]

Best Team Sports Players Ever

1. Elway
2. Ruth
3. Jordan
4. Brady
5. Gretzky

You left off the Greatest Team Sports Player ever, William Fenton Russell.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You left off the Greatest Team Sports Player ever, William Fenton Russell.

It was a joke post with Elway #1, but yes, Russell would be on a real list.

 

[farn]

NFL's 20 greatest coach-quarterback duos: Andy Reid, Patrick Mahomes looking to join list

Brady - BB as #1. Makes all the sense in the world.

Brees - SP as #2. Still need someone to explain to me why people love Brees that much. We are talking about a coach-QB combo that has had several poor seasons. For the author to put him ahead of Montana - Walsh & Aikman - JJ...

 

[Zarozzor]

NFL's 20 greatest coach-quarterback duos: Andy Reid, Patrick Mahomes looking to join list

Brady - BB as #1. Makes all the sense in the world.

Brees - SP as #2. Still need someone to explain to me why people love Brees that much. We are talking about a coach-QB combo that has had several poor seasons. For the author to put him ahead of Montana - Walsh & Aikman - JJ...

Brees love is nauseating.

163-111 .595% Regular Season Record
8-8 Playoff Record

out of all the most commonly listed top 10 quarterbacks across the Internet, he has the worst win % by far. Next would be Marino with .613%

and before anyone says anything about how bad his defenses have been, I get it. The ones in the middle 2010’s were terrible. But that’s the price you pay when you take up so much of the salary cap, and throw the ball around all over a dome a minimum 9 times a year. You’re going to get in shootouts.