Way to go, Stubhub

[PatsFan37]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I've already spent too much time on this.

 

[Michigan Dave]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I've already spent too much time on this.

Fair enough. I respect your viewpoint and think it is ideal, I just don't see a reasonable way for it to be accomplished.

 

[QuiGon]

Great! I hear there is some great Chinese toothpaste available that says "Colgate" on the front. Or dog food that says "Alpo" on the front.

Good for you. Now WTF does that have to do with scalping tickets..?

But more to this situation, there also is something called "intellectual property". The Krafts are doing nothing more than what any movie studio does to protect pirated versions of their product. The originator made the product. The originator has every right to protect its distribution. What did Stub Hub do to make the Patriots such a desired product? Stub Hub is taking unfair advantage. If Kraft jacked up the ticket prices to "what the market would bear", he would be villified. Stub Hub does it and it's OK?

Well, I would never "villify" a person for selling a luxury good for fair market value. Now, a bunch of whining bleeding heart liberals might villify him, but I can't be responsible for them.

A "free and open marketplace" should be that way for all parties. Kraft should, therefore, have the very same right to:
1) Hold onto the tickets and horde them until he sees fit to sell them
2) Jack up ticket prices on a game-by-game basis right up until game time.

You want it "free and open" - - then Kraft should have AT LEAST the same right as those leeches Stub Hub in regard to his own product.

I would have absolutely no problem if he did that. But he doesn't, so I have absolutely no problem with someone stepping in and doing it instead.

For whatever reason, teams don't conduct business that way. Maybe that's because in the long run, that probably isn't a wise strategy. I am just speculating, but perhaps in the long run, having a solid base of season ticket holders is a better strategy than what you have suggested above. Season tickets holders tend to stay through the rough times, and you can force them to buy those pesky preseason games.

 

[Michigan Dave]

For whatever reason, teams don't conduct business that way. Maybe that's because in the long run, that probably isn't a wise strategy. I am just speculating, but perhaps in the long run, having a solid base of season ticket holders is a better strategy than what you have suggested above. Season tickets holders tend to stay through the rough times, and you can force them to buy those pesky preseason games.

Exactly. Alienating fans is a horrid business strategy. The team's business practices are very public and apply to everyone. If I want to sell my ticket for $500, and you want to sell yours for $50, that in no way reflects on the team. But if the team did that, it would be horribly criticized. Imagine if, say Sony withheld PS3 units to artificially increase the demand and then were selling them for thousands on eBay. They would be slaughtered in the media for those business ethics. But if I camped out at Best Buy, got a PS3, and put it up on eBay myself for $2000, that is different.

 

[JDP111]

China is more capitalistic than the U.S. will ever be.

Yeah, their government is!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shmessy]

China is more capitalistic than the U.S. will ever be.

You betcha! Just ask their Food and Drug Administration head.

Ooops! He was just executed for his "capitalism" wasn't he? Taking $800,000 in bribes to OK fake medications to the masses.

 

[QuiGon]

You betcha! Just ask their Food and Drug Administration head.

Ooops! He was just executed for his "capitalism" wasn't he? Taking $800,000 in bribes to OK fake medications to the masses.

Yeah... some corrupt official in China took bribes, so that must prove how evil and wrong capitalism is.

Boy you sure showed us

 

[shmessy]

Yeah... some corrupt official in China took bribes, so that must prove how evil and wrong capitalism is.

Boy you sure showed us

Oh, so something to excess is still OK? Someone may love beer, but drinking to excess will turn that person into a Cincinnatti Bengal.

I love it how the conversation always goes "You hate Capitalism" whenever someone says there should be protections against dangerous corruption. Dangerous corruption happens everywhere, including the most anachronistic of Communist societies. Wherever it occurs, there should be checks and balances against it.

The China Drug Administrator situation shows that a system tilting too far towards the producers and not looking out for the consumer. The North Korean famine shows corruption of a different order.

There evidently was no oversight or checks and balances regarding this. This guy approved on his own. Can you see the FDA in our country not having more than just one person accountable? D'ya think there may be a REASON why it is so cheap to manufacture in China? Nah, don't think too deeply about that, Quigon.

****But back to the original issue. Stubhub doesn't "perform a service" to the public. The stadium seats 68,000 people. Stub Hub does not increase the amount or availability of the tickets. They merely use their inside sources and telephone banks to horde these tickets before they can get to the non-season ticket holding public (you know, the regular masses who work at other jobs for a living and don't have boilerrooms full of people whose job it is to intercept these tickets before someone can buy it from the Pats at face value).

 

[QuiGon]

There evidently was no oversight or checks and balances regarding this. This guy approved on his own. Can you see the FDA in our country not having more than just one person accountable? D'ya think there may be a REASON why it is so cheap to manufacture in China? Nah, don't think too deeply about that, Quigon.

This is why I precluded my entire statement with the assumption that we are talking about a luxury good here. We are not talking about health care, food, water, home heating oil or a quality of life issue. Of course, since your arguments are completely bankrupt, that's what you always fall back to. I am the first to admit that we need laws and regulations for things such as minimum wage or anti-gouging laws during hurricanes, but that's got nothing to do with this issue.

****But back to the original issue. Stubhub doesn't "perform a service" to the public. The stadium seats 68,000 people. Stub Hub does not increase the amount or availability of the tickets.

Yes, they do. They do not increase the amount but, by creating an open marketplace, scalpers do increase the availability. Since you obviously aren't smart enough to figure out how by yourself, let me explain:

I wanted to go to Super Bowl 39, but I don't have season tickets and I don't have any connections or anything like that. Now let's suppose scalping was 100% illegal and 100% enforced and nobody anywhere ever scalped a ticket. So how the hell do you suggest I go about getting Super Bowl tickets...? No one on the planet is going to sell them to me for face value because they are too valuable for that. There's absolutely no reasonable way whatsoever I could ever get a ticket. Period, end of story. Fortunately for me, in the real world, scalping takes place. So I shelled out about $4,000 on eBay and took my dad to the game.

Furthermore, with many different scalpers out there, I was able to negotiate a better deal. I didn't go to StubHub. I went to eBay and negotiated with about a dozen sellers before working out a price I liked for seats I wanted. More scalpers = better for consumer.

In conclusion: With illegal scalping (closed marketplace) I had absolutely zero availability of tickets. With an open marketplace, I had availability - I just had to pay the market value.

As a consumer, I benefitted from the open marketplace. Instead of having no options whatsoever, I had many options before agreeing to pay $4,000 and go to the game. No one forced me to spend the money and I don't begrudge the person who profitted $3,000 one bit.

 

[QuiGon]

Exactly. Alienating fans is a horrid business strategy. The team's business practices are very public and apply to everyone. If I want to sell my ticket for $500, and you want to sell yours for $50, that in no way reflects on the team. But if the team did that, it would be horribly criticized. Imagine if, say Sony withheld PS3 units to artificially increase the demand and then were selling them for thousands on eBay. They would be slaughtered in the media for those business ethics. But if I camped out at Best Buy, got a PS3, and put it up on eBay myself for $2000, that is different.

I agree 100%. And I just don't understand why people just want to throw capitalism out the window with regards to tickets. If I go to the football card shop and buy a $10 pack of Upper Deck, and get a Tom Brady-Peyton Manning double autograph, I can turn around and sell it for $500 and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But, for some reason, a lot of people throw a hissy fit if I (hypothetically) did the same thing with my season tickets.

 

[Gwedd]

QuiGon,

I agree. We are dealing with a luxury item. It's not a necessity of life (regardless of how rabid a fan anyone is).

Lookit: I'd love to be able to go to a Pats game some day. I keep trying to save up the dough, but between travel from Maine and actually being able to pay for the ticket, let alone food and drink while there, well, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. I live on a fixed income. Very fixed. I'm a disabled veteran and can't work. I'm not saying that for sympathy or anything else other than to show how it is.

I watch the games from home. I have a good TV, and run it through the small stereo. It works. I get to see the action. I'd love to go to a real game sometime, but I also realise it probably won't happen and THAT'S OKAY. Seeing the game live is a luxury. It's not food, or rent, or electricity. It's like buying a bass boat or a new shotgun or an X-Box. Nice to have. Kewl to play with. But not necesary.

What I'm getting at (I hope) is that in the long run capitalism works. I personally dislike the idea of ticket brokers being able to score huge amounts of tickets and resell them at a large profit. I don't, however, have any problem with an individual putting their personal tix up for sale for whatever they can get.

Any of this make sense? Ah well. It's late and I'm tired, so I'll step off the soapbox now

Regardless, I'm looking forward to a great season. This is my 35th year watching the Pats. It's a great reward for some of those earlier years.

Respects,

 

[shmessy]

Yes, they do. They do not increase the amount but, by creating an open marketplace, scalpers do increase the availability. Since you obviously aren't smart enough to figure out how by yourself, let me explain:

I wanted to go to Super Bowl 39, but I don't have season tickets and I don't have any connections or anything like that. Now let's suppose scalping was 100% illegal and 100% enforced and nobody anywhere ever scalped a ticket. So how the hell do you suggest I go about getting Super Bowl tickets...? No one on the planet is going to sell them to me for face value because they are too valuable for that. There's absolutely no reasonable way whatsoever I could ever get a ticket. Period, end of story. Fortunately for me, in the real world, scalping takes place. So I shelled out about $4,000 on eBay and took my dad to the game.

Furthermore, with many different scalpers out there, I was able to negotiate a better deal. I didn't go to StubHub. I went to eBay and negotiated with about a dozen sellers before working out a price I liked for seats I wanted. More scalpers = better for consumer.

In conclusion: With illegal scalping (closed marketplace) I had absolutely zero availability of tickets. With an open marketplace, I had availability - I just had to pay the market value.

As a consumer, I benefitted from the open marketplace. Instead of having no options whatsoever, I had many options before agreeing to pay $4,000 and go to the game. No one forced me to spend the money and I don't begrudge the person who profitted $3,000 one bit.

You mean Mike Tice?

Your argument naively assumes that the scalper didn't have inside connections. Perhaps the every once in a while an e-bay seller doesn't (don't think everyone on e-bay is just an old lady in the basement), but to say Stub Hub has no more inside unfair advantage to attain the tickets over you and me is absurd.

Chicken and the egg. Don't you think the tickets for most games are harder to get BECAUSE of Stub Hub's and ACE's organized pre-hoarding? They have hundreds of folks working full time to horde these tickets. They drive the individual regular Joe aside from getting the tickets originally. If you don't know how that actually works, you should educate yourself on it before extolling thier "virtues".

 

[QuiGon]

You mean Mike Tice?

Your argument naively assumes that the scalper didn't have inside connections.

Um, no it doesn't. Nowhere in my argument have I said anything about the scalper not having inside connections. I am sure some do, and some don't. Some scalpers are these professional businesses, and some are just regular season ticket holders that don't want to go to every single game.

Perhaps the every once in a while an e-bay seller doesn't (don't think everyone on e-bay is just an old lady in the basement), but to say Stub Hub has no more inside unfair advantage to attain the tickets over you and me is absurd.

Where have I said that..? I said I don't have any inside connections, but I never said no one else does. In fact, it's one of the dirty little secrets of the NFL. Plenty of teams are working with scalpers so they can get a piece of the pie too.

Looks like you need to work on the ole' reading comprehension; you're reading things that simply aren't there.

Chicken and the egg. Don't you think the tickets for most games are harder to get BECAUSE of Stub Hub's and ACE's organized pre-hoarding? They have hundreds of folks working full time to horde these tickets. They drive the individual regular Joe aside from getting the tickets originally. If you don't know how that actually works, you should educate yourself on it before extolling thier "virtues".

Oh, I agree there is some hoarding going on by scalpers, but I have no doubt that it isn't as much as you think. I mean, how many NEP tickets go on sale to the general public...? A couple thousand...?

See here's your logical fallacy (or, I should say, one of your many logical fallacies).... you think that if there was no scalping, then any game that anyone wants to go to would have plenty of great seats available at cheap prices.

Tell ya what... you tell me how I could have reasonably gotten Super Bowl 39 tickets without scalpers, and then I'll agree that scalping is wrong and should be illegal. I guess I could have entered, like, every single contest in the country where someone was giving away SB tickets... but personally I don't like my chances there...

 

[shmessy]

Oh, I agree there is some hoarding going on by scalpers, but I have no doubt that it isn't as much as you think.

Understatement of the year. Open your eyes and you will see that Stub Hub, ACE, etc. own the system of ticket redistribution. You give far too much credence to the annecdotal examples of a few individuals who do it. Meanwhile these very profitable scalper corporations have boilerrooms full of people whose only job 24/7 is to horde these tickets for resale.

Your fairy tale version that MOST of it is just Joe and Josephine season ticket holder who has to go to a wedding that Sunday is ridiculous. They may be the original holders, but 90% of the time they aren't the second-to-last people to hold those tickets.

I'm fine with the original ticket holder selling the tickets for whatever profit to someone WHO WILL GO TO THE GAME. It's the corporate middle man who screws it up for everyone.

 

[Bargod]

I didn't see this point of view in this thread but I may have missed it. So I apologize ahead of time if this has been broguht up.

There was a time when you couldn't bring a little kid to the game becuase it was brutal in the stands. The language is one thing but the fighting and beer spilling and obnoxious losers who couldn't hold their liquor made it a non firendly place. It was so bad they couldn't get a Monday Night game all those years. The Pats got tired of it and short of putting a courtroom in the basement like in Philly they cracked down and had a zero tolerance policy.

Now with the Patriots Exchange they know that not only are the sellers responsible for behaving but so are the waiting list folks. You screw up and you lose your tickets or your money you paid to get on the list.

I think that's where they want to control it from. You need not only a good footall team but you need a product that's appealing and this is one way of protecting your product.

Just my two cents

 

[QuiGon]

Understatement of the year. Open your eyes and you will see that Stub Hub, ACE, etc. own the system of ticket redistribution. You give far too much credence to the annecdotal examples of a few individuals who do it. Meanwhile these very profitable scalper corporations have boilerrooms full of people whose only job 24/7 is to horde these tickets for resale.

Well, that's because all too often, the teams themselves are in bed with the scalpers. Something like 20 NFL teams have direct relationships with StubHub.

Oh, and by the way, where do you think StubHub gets their tickets..? An awful lot of them come from season ticket holders. Haven't you heard their commercials..? They try to solicit both buyers and sellers. FWIW, I don't use StubHub... they're just a middleman that can be easily avoided simply by going to eBay. Of course, that proves my contention that more scalpers = better for consumers.

Anyway, since you ignored my question about how I could get SB39 tickets without scalpers, I will take that as your concession to my point.

 

[shmessy]

Quigon: Well, that's because all too often, the teams themselves are in bed with the scalpers. Something like 20 NFL teams have direct relationships with StubHub.
____
Shmessy: We're talking about Kraft vs. Stub Hub. I could care less what the Chargers, Bengals, etc. do. Obviously, Kraft does not have a "direct relationship" with the scalpers.
____
Quigon: Oh, and by the way, where do you think StubHub gets their tickets..? An awful lot of them come from season ticket holders. Haven't you heard their commercials..? They try to solicit both buyers and sellers.
______
Shmessy: Just as I wrote - who needs the middleman to put an EXTRA premium on the price between the original holder and his/her profit?
______

Quigon: FWIW, I don't use StubHub... they're just a middleman that can be easily avoided simply by going to eBay.
______

Shmessy: Great - E-Bay is fine. Direct one-to-one exchange.
_____

Quigon: Of course, that proves my contention that more scalpers = better for consumers.
______

Shmessy: Man, you are the King of Strawman Arguments! Have you ever in this thread seen me arguing against individual scalpers????? I bet you do this kind of sideways crap in the political forum too!

My whole point is against massive boilerroom operations like Stub Hub and ACE who tilt the whole system against the individual. Somehow, you confuse that with the individual ticketholder who sells on E-Bay, fer crying out loud.
________
Quigon: Anyway, since you ignored my question about how I could get SB39 tickets without scalpers, I will take that as your concession to my point.
_____

Shmessy: Stub Hub and ACE, not individual scalpers. But whatever turns you on. "Concession to my point"?????? What do you do? Put a nice gold star on your forehead, Mr. Debating Champion?

 

[QuiGon]

My whole point is against massive boilerroom operations like Stub Hub and ACE who tilt the whole system against the individual. Somehow, you confuse that with the individual ticketholder who sells on E-Bay, fer crying out loud.

So then it seems we're mostly in agreement...you don't seem to have a problem with individual scalpers, you just don't like the big companies. I have no problem with either but when I need tickets, I tend to use individuals because of better prices. Funny how as a consumer, I benefit from an open marketplace with a lot of different sellers, huh../? Gee, it's like I've been saying that all along...

Shmessy: Stub Hub and ACE, not individual scalpers. But whatever turns you on. "Concession to my point"?????? What do you do? Put a nice gold star on your forehead, Mr. Debating Champion?

It's too bad you can't discuss this subject without demonstrating how much of an a**hole you are... it's actually an interesting debate....but for some reason, you feel the need to bring things down to the level of a 2nd grader...perhaps that because that's the highest level you're capable of thinking at...

 

[Michigan Dave]

My whole point is against massive boilerroom operations like Stub Hub and ACE who tilt the whole system against the individual. Somehow, you confuse that with the individual ticketholder who sells on E-Bay, fer crying out loud.

StubHub is also a person-person site. It matches buyers with sellers, and takes a portion of the sale as a finders fee. It is the same as eBay. If I wanted to put my Michigan tickets on StubHub (which would probably follow with a suicide), I could sell them on there. StubHub and eBay are one in the same.

 

[QuiGon]

StubHub is also a person-person site. It matches buyers with sellers, and takes a portion of the sale as a finders fee. It is the same as eBay. If I wanted to put my Michigan tickets on StubHub (which would probably follow with a suicide), I could sell them on there. StubHub and eBay are one in the same.

That statement may be truer than you know... eBay recently bought StubHub.... I wonder how that will change the service from either of those businesses...