Steve Phillips on Mike and Mike: What the Sox *might* offer for Santana

[ctpatsfan77]

Phillips suggested that the Sox might offer Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury to land Santana, on the grounds that Beckett-Santana-Matsuzaka-Schilling-Wakefield would be well nigh unstoppable.

Does this sound logical to anyone else? Personally, I don't buy it, mainly because the Sox would basically be screwing themselves over in 2009 and 2010 for an increased chance of winning in 2008.

 

[patriotspride]

Phillips suggested that the Sox might offer Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury to land Santana, on the grounds that Beckett-Santana-Matsuzaka-Schilling-Wakefield would be well nigh unstoppable.

Does this sound logical to anyone else? Personally, I don't buy it, mainly because the Sox would basically be screwing themselves over in 2009 and 2010 for an increased chance of winning in 2008.

the only part that doesnt make sense is giving up ellsbury .add crisp and remove ellsbury and i do that trade as long as the sox get a window to extend santanas contract.

 

[DarrylS]

Hesitate about this trade, but then again that is why I am a pats fan and not a GM in baseball. If it were Lester, Justin Mayweather, Crisp and another prospect would do it in a minute.

 

[scout]

Including Ellsbury in a trade would rank as one of the biggest trade blunders in Red Sox history. Not up there with Ruth, but ahead of George Scott.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Steve Phillips is an idiot, plain and simple. He was a failure of a GM and has no inside knowledge. He speculates, and he's bad at it.

That is a ridiculous trade. Anyone trading for Santana is getting him for one year. The Sox would never trade six years of Ellsbury, six years of Buchholz, and 4 or 5 years of Lester for one year of Santana. Why not add Pedroia and Masterson while you're at it.

Besides, the Sox don't NEED Santana (Phillips's trade would be a desperate, need-based trade). They already have an ace. They already have a great #2 for next year in Schilling. They have Daisuke, who could become an ace but at worse will be a solid #2 or #3. Buchholz is a prospect with ace potential. Lester is a lefty who threw in the mid-90s pre-cancer. And besides Schilling they're all here longterm.

 

[maverick4]

bucholtz, lester, and crisp for santana.
please let this happen, please.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Phillips suggested that the Sox might offer Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury to land Santana, on the grounds that Beckett-Santana-Matsuzaka-Schilling-Wakefield would be well nigh unstoppable.

Does this sound logical to anyone else? Personally, I don't buy it, mainly because the Sox would basically be screwing themselves over in 2009 and 2010 for an increased chance of winning in 2008.

NFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ctpatsfan77]

lugo, lester, and crisp for santana.
please let this happen, please.

I fixed your post for you.

 

[scout]

I fixed your post for you.

Why, because he hit 385 with a OBP of 500 in the world series, or because he made some exceptional plays in the field saving runs. Boston might be the hardest city to play in, takes time for some players to settle in, give him a break.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Why, because he hit 385 with a OBP of 500 in the world series, or because he made some exceptional plays in the field saving runs. Boston might be the hardest city to play in, takes time for some players to settle in, give him a break.

Nothing against Lugo. Just that 5+ years of Lester + Buchholz > 1 year of Santana.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

I really think people underestimate Lester. Power lefties are not easy to come by, and he has shown an amazing ability to pitch himself out of jams.

Of course, he pitches himself into the jams in the first place. He may never improve his command, but he might. And if he does he can be a great pitcher.

Forget what you saw this year (even though it was still pretty good). He lost his offseason to chemotherapy. You think you can undergo chemo and you're suddenly 100%? Lester should enter next season fully healthy for the first time in awhile.

There's a reason he was considered an equivalent or better prospect than Papelbon.

Back to the silly trade offer, I'd rather trade Buchholz + Ellsbury for 2+ years of Peavy, Bedard, Sheets, etc. while keeping Lester. And the Sox could then still go after Santana next offseason.

 

[maverick4]

Nothing against Lugo. Just that 5+ years of Lester + Buchholz > 1 year of Santana.

Bucholz had the no hitter, but the fact is they are both still young UNKNOWN prospects.

Remember when we traded for Pedro? We traded Brian Rose and Carl Pavano, at the time some thought we gave up some aces.

Look, Santana is a sure thing, he is young as well, just pull the trigger with the two young pitchers, and keep Ellsbury.

 

[scout]

Bucholz had the no hitter, but the fact is they are both still young UNKNOWN prospects.

Remember when we traded for Pedro? We traded Brian Rose and Carl Pavano, at the time some thought we gave up some aces.

Look, Santana is a sure thing, he is young as well, just pull the trigger with the two young pitchers, and keep Ellsbury.

On the other hand, I am sure managers had asked for Paplebon before he was established.

 

[Real World]

Phillips suggested that the Sox might offer Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury to land Santana, on the grounds that Beckett-Santana-Matsuzaka-Schilling-Wakefield would be well nigh unstoppable.

Does this sound logical to anyone else? Personally, I don't buy it, mainly because the Sox would basically be screwing themselves over in 2009 and 2010 for an increased chance of winning in 2008.

Steve Phillips is as clueless as they come. Last year that maroon said that the Yankees needed to sign Barry Zito and Jason Schmidt to have any chance at making the playoffs. Ok Stevie. How's those two guys do? He's an entertaining guy to listen to on TV, but he's on TV, and not running a team, for a reason.


As a Yankees fan I can tell you that Santana will be expensive. The Yankes are going to probably offer a package that starts with Cano, and probably includes Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy, and something else. My guess anyway. The word is that theTwins are looking more for position players, and less for pitching, since they are deeper in the latter, and thinner with position players.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Bucholz had the no hitter, but the fact is they are both still young UNKNOWN prospects.

Remember when we traded for Pedro? We traded Brian Rose and Carl Pavano, at the time some thought we gave up some aces.

Look, Santana is a sure thing, he is young as well, just pull the trigger with the two young pitchers, and keep Ellsbury.

Pedro was traded for Pavano + Armas Jr.

1997 Pedro was much better than 2007 Santana

Buchholz is a better prospect than Pavano was.

Lester and Ellsbury are both much better prospects than Armas Jr. was in 1997.

Boston was able to extend Pedro. Whoever trades for Santana likely has little chance of extending him.

Prospects are more valued today than they were in 1997.

I understand your point, but all three of these Sox prospects have already cracked the majors and had success. They're more likely to succeed than the average prospect.

A more equivalent trade to the Pedro trade would be Buchholz and Bowden (though both are better than their 1997 counterparts), which would answer the question of whether or not Boston is willing to trade Buchholz at all.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

A more equivalent trade to the Pedro trade would be Buchholz and Bowden (though both are better than their 1997 counterparts), which would answer the question of whether or not Boston is willing to trade Buchholz at all.

Well, they're sending Lester and Buchholz down to Texas to train with Captain Awesome of the F*** Yeah Brigade (i.e., Josh Beckett) over the winter. . . .

 

[scout]

Steve Phillips is as clueless as they come. Last year that maroon said that the Yankees needed to sign Barry Zito and Jason Schmidt to have any chance at making the playoffs. Ok Stevie. How's those two guys do? He's an entertaining guy to listen to on TV, but he's on TV, and not running a team, for a reason.


As a Yankees fan I can tell you that Santana will be expensive. The Yankes are going to probably offer a package that starts with Cano, and probably includes Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy, and something else. My guess anyway. The word is that theTwins are looking more for position players, and less for pitching, since they are deeper in the latter, and thinner with position players.

No wonder the guy's unemployed as a GM. I don't follow baseball anywhere' near these guys, and I could see Zito's numbers dropping every year. Yea, I want him as my GM.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Not a F-ing chance..............

I'd personally kick them in the nuts over Els alone. I'll take my chances, longer term, with Jon and Buck.... over a very short term Santana.

 

[maverick4]

Boston was able to extend Pedro. Whoever trades for Santana likely has little chance of extending him. Prospects are more valued today than they were in 1997.

Why do we have little chance of extending Santana? And why are prospects worth diamonds today and supposedly were worth coal 10 years ago?

Pavano and Armas looked really good when we traded for Pedro, and there's really no telling just how Lester or Bucholz will really turn out. Frankly if I'm Minnesota I don't even know if I trade Santana for those two guys, it's just too risky from Minnesota's standpoint. But from the Red Sox standpoint, you pull that trigger in a heartbeat.

Santana is a lefty stud, he's been a lefty Cy Young stud for a long time already, and he's also a young pitcher. He's the #1 valued pitcher in the game today based on his talent and his age. I would gladly sacrifice a little more *perceived* talent to get a more sure thing, especially as sure as Santana.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Why do we have little chance of extending Santana? And why are prospects worth diamonds today and supposedly were worth coal 10 years ago?

Pavano and Armas looked really good when we traded for Pedro, and there's really no telling just how Lester or Bucholz will really turn out. Frankly if I'm Minnesota I don't even know if I trade Santana for those two guys, it's just too risky from Minnesota's standpoint. But from the Red Sox standpoint, you pull that trigger in a heartbeat.

Santana is a lefty stud, he's been a lefty Cy Young stud for a long time already, and he's also a young pitcher. He's the #1 valued pitcher in the game today based on his talent and his age. I would gladly sacrifice a little more *perceived* talent to get a more sure thing, especially as sure as Santana.

Santana is already set for life. He signed his "give up free agency but be set for life" contract in 2005. He doesn't need to sign an extension now.

Pedro hadn't made much money before being traded to Boston. He had incentive to sign ahead of free agency.

Armas Jr. wasn't even in the Baseball America Top 100 and was still in High A when he was traded. There is a huge difference between the success rate of prospects in High A and those who have already had success in the Majors. Don't exaggerate his prospect status. The Sox had just gotten him from the Yankees for freaking Mike Stanley. Guys like him are included in trades all of the time.

Prospects are worth more today because great players are harder to buy in free agency and because free agency prices for even filler are so expensive. If a prospect becomes a star his equivalent costs 15M+ in free agency, if his equivalent even becomes available at all. If he simply becomes a starter his equivalent costs 8M in free agency. If he just becomes a good bench guy his equivalent costs 3M in free agency.

Prices for prospects have barely gone up in 10 years while the prices for veterans have greatly increased. Combined with the scarcity of good players on the market, that's why they're worth a lot more today.

As for Santana, anyone who trades for him only gets him for one year. And then whoever signs him next year gets his decline phase of his career. He isn't old, but he isn't young either. Based on talent and age I'd take Verlander over him without thinking twice. I'd probably take Peavy. I might consider Felix Hernandez because he's so freaking young.

I think you're exaggerating Santana's current status and ignoring the fact he's a one year rental.