SI Mcann's review of today's proceedings

[SVN]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/19/deflategate-hearing-tom-brady-roger-goodell-richard-berman

 

[Tony2046]

This seems long from over. It seems like Brady will get the suspension vacated but then what the NFL does next could prolong this thing for another couple of years. Wonderful. What a bunch of .......

 

[Hoodie]

If Berman is planning to rule for the NFL, he's quite an actor and should probably go to Hollywood. It's not just his questions but his reported tone, the air quotes around "independent" at the 8/12 hearing. In addition, he's flat out said not allowing Pash to testify is grounds to vacate.

If Brady takes a deal now it's because he's sick of the whole thing and doesn't want to deal with appeals and the NFL should count itself lucky.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

This seems long from over. It seems like Brady will get the suspension vacated but then what the NFL does next could prolong this thing for another couple of years. Wonderful. What a bunch of .......

I don't think the NFL owners are going to stand for a 3 year battle on this, if it is vacated. Some of them don't have the stomach for it now.

 

[Angelpats]

The comparisons of this case with others that have not been overturned does not take into account the level of absurdity and bs that the nfl has based its case upon. Only someone who is extremely biased would read the wells report and all the transcripts and say that the nfl has a strong case.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

he's flat out said not allowing Pash to testify is grounds to vacate.

The way to leave little/no ground for appeal is vacating the ruling based on a specific and indisputable point such as this one. Then from his bully pulpit he can comment that several other things bothered him but had no impact on the ruling, like there being no evidence, like Goodell mischaracterizing testimony, like insufficient notice of punishments possible, like making it up as you go along, like sleazy press leaks..

He could go scorched Earth on them and still shut down appeal possibilities, if he desires.

 

[Fencer]

The way to leave little/no ground for appeal is vacating the ruling based on a specific and indisputable point such as this one. Then from his bully pulpit he can comment that several other things bothered him but had no impact on the ruling, like there being no evidence, like Goodell mischaracterizing testimony, like insufficient notice of punishments possible, like making it up as you go along, like sleazy press leaks..

He could go scorched Earth on them and still shut down appeal possibilities, if he desires.

Well, the right number of points isn't exactly 1. 3 or so, perhaps?

 

[Tony2046]

I don't think the NFL owners are going to stand for a 3 year battle on this, if it is vacated. Some of them don't have the stomach for it now.

I hope not but this quote from the article worried me.

It’s possible the NFL could conduct another hearing to review Brady’s four-game suspension, although clearly Goodell would not be the presiding officer for that second NFL hearing. Brady would be able to play in the meantime, but a second NFL hearing would be looming over his head. NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler has asked Judge Berman not to allow a second NFL hearing, but it’s not clear that Judge Berman would go along with such a stipulation.

That would mean another appeal and possibly another court date except this time the NFL would have made sure their case was court/appeal proof.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I hope not but this quote from the article worried me.

It’s possible the NFL could conduct another hearing to review Brady’s four-game suspension, although clearly Goodell would not be the presiding officer for that second NFL hearing. Brady would be able to play in the meantime, but a second NFL hearing would be looming over his head. NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler has asked Judge Berman not to allow a second NFL hearing, but it’s not clear that Judge Berman would go along with such a stipulation.

That would mean another appeal and possibly another court date except this time the NFL would have made sure their case was court/appeal proof.

Assuming Berman rules against the NFL, it would be basically impossible to re-make the same case and make it court/appeal proof. Issues like lack of notice, trying to punish Brady under a policy that doesn't apply to him, stepping outside the bounds of the arbitrator's authority by making a ruling that isn't based on the reports at hand, etc. As long as the arbitrator is bound by the Wells Report--and assuming that Berman rules in Brady's favor--it'll be impossible to suspend Brady based on the Wells Report, as will have been established that 'general awareness' is not a standard by which someone can be suspended.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Well, the right number of points isn't exactly 1. 3 or so, perhaps?

1 is plenty, if it is airtight. In fact the more NFL missteps you use to base your decision, the more you leave yourself open to second-guessing on appeal. He should pick the 2-3 strongest points, only, for the basis of the ruling, IMO. Slam them for other things, but say that they were not contributors to this particular labor dispute decision.

 

[Fencer]

1 is plenty, if it is airtight. In fact the more NFL missteps you use to base your decision, the more you leave yourself open to second-guessing on appeal. He should pick the 2-3 strongest points, only, for the basis of the ruling, IMO. Slam them for other things, but say that they were not contributors to this particular labor dispute decision.

Yes. If you're certain that the judge and any appellate court will agree with your 1 point, you can restrict yourself to 1 point. But which lawyer is ever certain of the outcome of a decision?

Hence my figure of 3, or yours of 2-3. Better odds, all things considered.

 

[woolster22]

I hope not but this quote from the article worried me.

It’s possible the NFL could conduct another hearing to review Brady’s four-game suspension, although clearly Goodell would not be the presiding officer for that second NFL hearing. Brady would be able to play in the meantime, but a second NFL hearing would be looming over his head. NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler has asked Judge Berman not to allow a second NFL hearing, but it’s not clear that Judge Berman would go along with such a stipulation.

That would mean another appeal and possibly another court date except this time the NFL would have made sure their case was court/appeal proof.

Wouldn't the Ray Rice ruling prevent this? In so many words, I thought one of the main reasons that was overturned was because rice could not face "double jeopardy."

So, wouldn't a second punishment/trial for Brady essentially be the same thing?

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Wouldn't the Ray Rice ruling prevent this? In so many words, I thought one of the main reasons that was overturned was because rice could not face "double jeopardy."

So, wouldn't a second punishment/trial for Brady essentially be the same thing?

They could maybe just say this time we are punishing you for equipment violations instead of integrity of the game. It would strain legitimacy but so far the NFL's theory seems to be "who cares if it's legitimate, make the accused fight legitimacy in court."

I'm hoping Berman has seen this process and that why the public pantsing of the NFL. Kind of like, since the NFL thinks it has no concern ensuring their process follows the CBA, and just figures they have the resources to fight it in court over and over maybe he wants to show them court can be painful, and embarrassing.

So if you don't want to go through this process again, try showing some effort to be fair, and follow proper process.

 

[Tony2046]

Wouldn't the Ray Rice ruling prevent this? In so many words, I thought one of the main reasons that was overturned was because rice could not face "double jeopardy."

So, wouldn't a second punishment/trial for Brady essentially be the same thing?

I think the Ray Rice case was that he suspended him for 2 games and then after the media explosion, he suspended him indefinitely. The NFL argued that Rice had mislead the NFL during the interview and the Judge thought otherwise, effectively calling Roger a liar. She then ruled that Rice could not be punished a second time.

That's my understanding of it.

What I have been referring to is the article regarding Michael McCann's assessment.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/19/deflategate-hearing-tom-brady-roger-goodell-richard-berman

But I was later informed by BradyFTW that it would be a really tough road for the NFL to try to re-convict Brady.

 

[SVN]

I hope not but this quote from the article worried me.

It’s possible the NFL could conduct another hearing to review Brady’s four-game suspension, although clearly Goodell would not be the presiding officer for that second NFL hearing. Brady would be able to play in the meantime, but a second NFL hearing would be looming over his head. NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler has asked Judge Berman not to allow a second NFL hearing, but it’s not clear that Judge Berman would go along with such a stipulation.

That would mean another appeal and possibly another court date except this time the NFL would have made sure their case was court/appeal proof.

This quote worries me more

Third, judges’ questions are not always predictive of how they’ll rule. It is not unusual for attorneys to complain that they thought they would win a case based on the judge’s apparent sentiments during oral arguments, only to unexpectedly lose when the written order was published. Judges can be very hard to predict. This could prove true of Judge Berman in Brady v. NFL.

Too much early celebration going on .Little wary about all that until it happens.

 

[Tony2046]

This quote worries me more



Too much early celebration going on .Little wary about all that until it happens.

I just read the transcripts from Aug 12 and they are not as impressive as the tweets I read that day. I am not saying that Brady does not have a case etc..... but it definitely is not a home run for the NFLPA.

IANAL. (Tired of writing this)

 

[VectorPrime]

If its not a home run then its a lead off triple.

 

[supafly]

I just read the transcripts from Aug 12 and they are not as impressive as the tweets I read that day. I am not saying that Brady does not have a case etc..... but it definitely is not a home run for the NFLPA.

After 7 months of absolutely nothing (aside from having our hearts ripped out), we should be happy that some amount of progress is being made.

That's basically where it ends for me. Too many people here have been guided by their hopeful opinions, and whatever flavor of the week articles that are being spread around the internet.

 

[neuronet]

The way to leave little/no ground for appeal is vacating the ruling based on a specific and indisputable point such as this one. Then from his bully pulpit he can comment that several other things bothered him but had no impact on the ruling, like there being no evidence, like Goodell mischaracterizing testimony, like insufficient notice of punishments possible, like making it up as you go along, like sleazy press leaks..

He could go scorched Earth on them and still shut down appeal possibilities, if he desires.

Palm Beach I think you have a tendency to be optimistic about framegate. I gave that up when Wells released his report. :O

 

[Tony2046]

Palm Beach I think you have a tendency to be optimistic about framegate. I gave that up when Wells released his report. :O

That was just completely unbelievable along with the punishment.

I am hopeful and it has been nice to see the judge issue pretty strong statements against the NFL but who knows how he will rule?