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Secondary Help: Gregory + Trade


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Trades sound nice and all, but they rarely happen in the NFL during the season. We're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully BB can make lemonade!!
 
There's not enough discussion here about what BB and the coaches could do to find ways to get their DB's to succeed. One draft pick/FA after another has flashed a bit then languished only to fade away altogether. To think it's all been due to poor talent is slightly absurd. I don't care if none of the guys the Pats dumped went on to do very well elsewhere - plenty of former players have said that once a player anything short of superstar (and even some of them) is ruined by repeated demoralization they usually disappear. But that doesn't mean they weren't talented and it doesn't mean the coaching didn't screw them up so bad they never found their natural ability again, nor ever figured out how to incorporate that native talent into what they were being taught in the NFL. This secondary thing has been so consistently bad for the Pats - 5 years and counting right? - that BB surely bears a part of their failure AFTER they have arrived. Even a blind squireel finds a nut once in while, I just don't believe all the duds BB has drafted have bombed because they never had what it takes.

I keep hearing about these mythical "flash" guys. Other than the well-documented struggles of McCourty, who are these "flash" guys?

Wheatley - no
Wilhite - no
Butler - no
Dowling - no
Chung - no
Sanders - no
Meriweather - no
Hobbs - no
Samuel - no


On the other hand, guys like Gay and Arrington have come in as UDFA signings who worked out and developed, and converts like Brown and Edelman have also achieved a level of success.
 
Earthwind...Calling Earthwind :rolleyes:
 
as good as those guys are, I'm not sure they would help at this point.

the pats have what they have

I am going to be as optimistic as possible and say the one play that gave the seahawks the lead was at the hand of 2 rookies can be addressed, but I am not sure the current DB coach is the guy to address it

the pats need to bring in someone who can help this unit.....there's some decent individual talent there......but Boyer appears to simply be lost

I'm not saying mangini is the answer, but there appears to be a need, it would be a reall warm ending by having a kiss and make up moment.....true hallmark

Agreed with you all the way until you mentioned Fredo.
 
Trades sound nice and all, but they rarely happen in the NFL during the season. We're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully BB can make lemonade!!

Might be easy to make Lemonade.....there are already plenty of Lemons roaming the Pats secondary
 
I keep hearing about these mythical "flash" guys. Other than the well-documented struggles of McCourty, who are these "flash" guys?

Wheatley - no
Wilhite - no
Butler - no
Dowling - no
Chung - no
Sanders - no
Meriweather - no
Hobbs - no
Samuel - no


On the other hand, guys like Gay and Arrington have come in as UDFA signings who worked out and developed, and converts like Brown and Edelman have also achieved a level of success.

Of the more recent guys, I think both Dowling and Chung "flashed". Especially Dowling.. Last year he looked real good through camp. He looked good enough to earn a starting spot and at least IMO played well during his first start. After that he got hurt. Since then, he looks like he couldn't cover me. Not 100%? Loss of confidence? I don't know, but something is definitely wrong.
Similarly, I actually thought Butler looked good his first camp. Then he got toasted and that was it for him. I thought it was his confidence being shot, but even a change of scenery didn't help. Who knows? He certainly regressed the longer he was with the Pats.
Hopefully Chung and Dowling don't continue down the same path.
 
Of the more recent guys, I think both Dowling and Chung "flashed". Especially Dowling.. Last year he looked real good through camp. He looked good enough to earn a starting spot and at least IMO played well during his first start. After that he got hurt. Since then, he looks like he couldn't cover me. Not 100%? Loss of confidence? I don't know, but something is definitely wrong.
Similarly, I actually thought Butler looked good his first camp. Then he got toasted and that was it for him. I thought it was his confidence being shot, but even a change of scenery didn't help. Who knows? He certainly regressed the longer he was with the Pats.
Hopefully Chung and Dowling don't continue down the same path.

Dowling played 2 games before going on the shelf. He didn't have time to flash. He was also beating out a bunch of stiffs for the starting job. Even giving his "flash" the benefit of the doubt, we're looking at an oft-injured guy who had season ending hip surgery. Given the importance of healthy hips to a defensive back, and assuming that injury is part of what's holding him bac to this point, it's possible that he may never really recover.

Butler was bad from the beginning.

Chung has been the same player (good tackler, lousy cover guy, oft-injured) from the start.

This year is supposed to be a great year for safeties. That's something the Patriots should definitely look at in the draft. Brent Grimes would have been a CB to look at in free agency, but his Achilles injury will certainly warrant a very cautious approach.


Just my $.02
 
This year is supposed to be a great year for safeties. That's something the Patriots should definitely look at in the draft. Brent Grimes would have been a CB to look at in free agency, but his Achilles injury will certainly warrant a very cautious approach.


Just my $.02

I agree that Grimes is going to be one of the top 10 CB's in the league, he may already actually be there already, or at least he was well on his way. It's a shame that the injury hurt him, and such a serious one at that.

Even if he hadn't been injured, I think he'd be one of the top CB's in FA next year, which would = a huge payday and an automatic scratch off the list of NEP potentials.

If we grab someone in FA (and we damn well should) for the spot of CB, they will likely be in the mold of the Leigh Bodden mold; meaning "reasonable" money and 3rd tier CB in free agency terms. That would be fine with me, especially since the price of corners seems to be going up every single year.

When I say reasonable money, I'm guessing around 5 1/2--6 million per, which is still quite expensive, and may still be too much for Belichick.

Of course seeing the problem at its worst for the past few seasons may finally change his approach, just like I assumed that this would finally be the year that he pulled the trigger on a 1st rd DE/OLB project---it basically got to the point where he didn't really have a choice anymore. Maybe we'll see the same with a FA cornerback again.

I think the way to go is to potentially address BOTH positions of CB/S in BOTH aspects of FA + the draft. The problem just has become too glaring, and is likely the one piece of the puzzle that would pretty much guarantee domination.
 
NFL GM's aren't the masochist reactionaries that MLB GM's are. You don't get key players on bad teams for a pound of ground beef and a smile.
 
Wow, reading this board one reads a lot of stupid stuff. I read one person saying we should not do anything at all because the problems are bigger than that, another saying to get Ed Reed, another saying to trade, yeah that's right:trade! Arrington! Like anyone would give you anything for him. Another saying it's too late to do anything we are stuck for the season, a bunch of pansies in here or are we stuck on stupid?

The time to react was in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 Free agent signings or ever since I started screaming my head off to do something about the crap secondary especially since it was obvious that this was becoming a passing league. Now since you let talents like Joseph, Bell, Pollard, and a ton of others go here's what you should be thinking of doing if you want to fix the circus in the back and avoid another 5 more wasted years as well as losing to pass happy rookie quarterbacks every 3rd week.

1) First things first, you fire the existing secondary, db and safety coach or if you don't have one, hire a good one, and don't be cheap now.

2) Start by signing a free agent db and safety, there are a few left just sign anyone they are probably better than what we have.

3) Start scouting college db's and safeties, throw all your resources there.

4) Make a trade: Kyle Love? Spikes? I don't know, how about Ridley?
 
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Dowling played 2 games before going on the shelf. He didn't have time to flash. He was also beating out a bunch of stiffs for the starting job. Even giving his "flash" the benefit of the doubt, we're looking at an oft-injured guy who had season ending hip surgery. Given the importance of healthy hips to a defensive back, and assuming that injury is part of what's holding him bac to this point, it's possible that he may never really recover.

Butler was bad from the beginning.

Chung has been the same player (good tackler, lousy cover guy, oft-injured) from the start.

This year is supposed to be a great year for safeties. That's something the Patriots should definitely look at in the draft. Brent Grimes would have been a CB to look at in free agency, but his Achilles injury will certainly warrant a very cautious approach.


Just my $.02

As I stated about both Dowling and especially Butler, I thought I remembered them having strong camps. The few practices I saw led me to believe they would both be productive. Since they both earned starting positions during their rookie years, apparently I wasn't the only one.

Darius Butler Should Rebound For Increased Role in Patriots' Secondary in 2011 - New England Patriots - NESN.com

Mike Reiss predicts where the New England Patriots' youngest players could be put on the roster - ESPN Boston

Blame for Patriots Secondary Struggles Start at the Top | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft
 
that's assuming some probowler would even want to come here to be subjected to having Boyer run his "I will turn you into Chris Canty" mad science experiments

I wonder what you'd be spewing if you found out that Boyer was teaching the secondary exactly what Belichick wanted him to teach??
 
As I stated about both Dowling and especially Butler, I thought I remembered them having strong camps. The few practices I saw led me to believe they would both be productive. Since they both earned starting positions during their rookie years, apparently I wasn't the only one.

Darius Butler Should Rebound For Increased Role in Patriots' Secondary in 2011 - New England Patriots - NESN.com

Mike Reiss predicts where the New England Patriots' youngest players could be put on the roster - ESPN Boston

Blame for Patriots Secondary Struggles Start at the Top | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

What players do in camp is meaningless in the grand scheme, though. What they do when the games count is what matters.
 
What players do in camp is meaningless in the grand scheme, though. What they do when the games count is what matters.

No argument here.
 
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