Players and their ridiculous excuses for illegal hits

[TruthSeeker]

This thread is simply what happens when people either have limited or no critical thinking skills and/or general knowledge of safety and corner play. DB's have been going low on bigger TE's and WR's since football was invented. Their job is to stop them from further forward progress and when they give up that much size to the ball carrier, going low is the most effective way to tackle him. We've all seen Gronk time and time again drag DB's for more yardage when they try to wrap up. In Ward's case, wrapping up wasn't an option at all. And you're right about the McCourty hit. Nobody was complaining about that in the game thread either, even though the hits were identical. He was wearing the right laundry.

Wrapping up is ALWAYS an option.

 

[Ring 6]

Wrapping up is ALWAYS an option.

I'm going to jump back in to this thread because this is a new spin on the topic.
What exactly does wrapping up have to do with whether the hit was clean or not?
If Ward did the exact same thing and wrapped up, it would be no different.
It seems that you are arguing a player should approach slowly and grab with his arms to wrap up rather than deliver the hardest blow he can with his shoulder, and then FINISH the tackle by wrapping up, which is correct form.
And no you cannot always wrap up because you do not always have a full hit on the ball carrier which is why you see arm tackles, shirt grabbing, diving at the ankles from behind, etc, etc.

Can yuo clarify what you mean by wrapping up and how it would impact something like that tackle?

 

[Kontradiction]

Another thread where a vocal segment are determining the morality of a player's actions based on what jersey the player was wearing.

edit:



Man, get out of my brain I didn't even read your comment before I posted mine.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I'm going to jump back in to this thread because this is a new spin on the topic.
What exactly does wrapping up have to do with whether the hit was clean or not?
If Ward did the exact same thing and wrapped up, it would be no different.
It seems that you are arguing a player should approach slowly and grab with his arms to wrap up rather than deliver the hardest blow he can with his shoulder, and then FINISH the tackle by wrapping up, which is correct form.
And no you cannot always wrap up because you do not always have a full hit on the ball carrier which is why you see arm tackles, shirt grabbing, diving at the ankles from behind, etc, etc.

Can yuo clarify what you mean by wrapping up and how it would impact something like that tackle?

Once again Andy, I respect your threads, and your positive spin on all things Patriots. But I disagree that if he did the same thing and wrapped up the results would be the same. Like I stated in another thread, coming full speed, tackling and wrapping up actually causes less stress on a knee as opposed to aiming your should pads and head at a knee coming at full speed. It's kinda like a check swing vs swinging with FULL follow through.

You can still deliver vicious hits and yet wrap up. I know, I've done it personally. Hitting a guy while he's coming full speed, I'm coming full speed, and I hit him around the waist and DROVE him into the ground viciously, and guess what happened, nobody got hurt, it was just a great form tackle, done because I was taught the fundamental of how to tackle until I could do it in my sleep. There are videos of guys making perfect form tackles on Youtube, there's one kid who's 10 who plants one of his opponents into the ground with a perfect form tackle. It's actually EASIER to perform a form tackle (wrap up included) when you're coming from the side, because the ball carrier has LESS chance to try to run you over. And Ward was coming from the side.

I'm 51 years old, I have never, ever in my 47 years of watching and playing football, seen a guy escape from a perfect form tackle when the arms are wrapped around the thighs or waist, when performed correctly, never. When I was 9, my Dad brought home one of his co-workers, who was almost 100 pounds more than me, and obviously a couple of inches taller than me, he said "Do you think you can tackle me ?" I said "I think so". We lined up in 3 point stances, he came at me with the ball, I watched his waist, the body always follows, exploded, wrapped around his waist, and down he went. Moral of the story, I don't give a **** that Ward is smaller than Gronk. You can always take down a bigger guy correctly.

Your last paragraph, that has nothing to do with the Gronk play, having poor angles and still trying to tackle (shoestring tackles etc), I agree you can't always wrap up, but Ward could have tackled higher and easily wrapped up, Gronk wasn't even looking at him, easy tackle.

I've said enough about this subject, I'm done. Those who agree with me, understand that tackling is a lost art. Those who don't, I can't help you understand my stance any more. My final thoughts are, was it an illegal hit, obviously not, it's not against the rules. Was it a DIRTY hit ? I don't think the guy wanted to hurt Gronk, but when you launch yourself with your helmet and shoulder pads at full speed, that's your intent to aim at the lower leg (which is where your knee is). It's like I said earlier, it's like pointing a gun at someone's knee, pulling the trigger, and then claiming your intent wasn't to injure the knee, same intent, same results. So not illegal, maybe not dirty, but I will fight anyone to the death that says it was a GOOD tackle or PERFECT tackle. Then you are just stupid and dead wrong if you say that. Poor tackling on that hit.

 

[Ivan]

Note to Matt Patrricia, game plan this week is to dive at Mike Wallace's knees until someone destroys them. Same goes for every game from here on out, just keep launching at the knees of the best player's on each team until you put them out for the season.

Hey, you can't go low so what choice do you have....................?

 

[Kontradiction]

Wrapping up is ALWAYS an option.

No, it's not. Further, those types of injuries have occurred plenty of times in the past even when the defender wraps up.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Note to Matt Patrricia, game plan this week is to dive at Mike Wallace's knees until someone destroys them. Same goes for every game from here on out, just keep launching at the knees of the best player's on each team until you put them out for the season.

Hey, you can't go low so what choice do you have....................?

How many times did Cleveland try to do the same thing to other ball carriers, I think someone else tried to hurdle an attempted knee tackle, and Boyce had to watch out for an attempted trip. I believe the Pats saw this on film prior to the game too and were aware that Cleveland's defense is tackling low (near the knees)

 

[TruthSeeker]

No, it's not. Further, those types of injuries have occurred plenty of times in the past even when the defender wraps up.

Thanks for your deep detailed rebuttal.

 

[Deus Irae]

Thanks for your deep detailed rebuttal.

Since wrapping up is, in fact, not always an option for any human player in NFL history, yet you say that it's always an option for you, you must be the fastest and quickest human being ever to live.

So, I'd like to congratulate you, and ask you how many times you are mentioned in the Guinness Book Of World Records.

 

[Kdo5]

even if there were no rules against going high...Ward would have gone low, because he is a defensive back, and gronk is a huge TE....and Ward knows if he went high we would have been blown up

Exactly. But Ward is the bad guy because he brought up 'the fine' which means he is a dirty, selfish player. The implications of the rule changes have been forewarned about. I'm sure there are a lot of DB's who have the same line of thinking. It was the easiest, most effective way to tackle a big man like Gronk and I don't think Ward was trying to destroy Gronk's knee.

Before we rant and rave some more there was a Pats DB who proceeded to do the same type of low hit on Josh Gordon. It's not just Ward doing it. It's also a legal hit, so take the complaints to the league office.

 

[Ring 6]

Once again Andy, I respect your threads, and your positive spin on all things Patriots.

Nice try, but you can't escape this one by saying my feeling that Ward did nothing wrong is a positive Patriots spin.

But I disagree that if he did the same thing and wrapped up the results would be the same. Like I stated in another thread, coming full speed, tackling and wrapping up actually causes less stress on a knee as opposed to aiming your should pads and head at a knee coming at full speed. It's kinda like a check swing vs swinging with FULL follow through.

That is just wrong. I'm sure you believe it, but it just isnt true. The injury occured at impact. Wrapping your arms after impact would do nothing to change that.

You can still deliver vicious hits and yet wrap up. I know, I've done it personally. Hitting a guy while he's coming full speed, I'm coming full speed, and I hit him around the waist and DROVE him into the ground viciously, and guess what happened, nobody got hurt, it was just a great form tackle, done because I was taught the fundamental of how to tackle until I could do it in my sleep.

Wrapping up is FINISHING the tackle. Of course it is a more effective way of tackling, but it has nothing to do with causing injuries.

There are videos of guys making perfect form tackles on Youtube, there's one kid who's 10 who plants one of his opponents into the ground with a perfect form tackle. It's actually EASIER to perform a form tackle (wrap up included) when you're coming from the side, because the ball carrier has LESS chance to try to run you over. And Ward was coming from the side.

You are comparing a 10 year old to a 200lb safety tackling a 270 lb TE? That is a great example of where you are off here.
Players do not wrap up because just like any other function on a football field, perfection is hard to attain.

I'm 51 years old, I have never, ever in my 47 years of watching and playing football, seen a guy escape from a perfect form tackle when the arms are wrapped around the thighs or waist, when performed correctly, never.

Of course not because your standard is whacked out.
You just said you have never seen a tackle broken after the tackle was completed. The point again is that whether he wrapped his arms or not has nothing to do with injury.

When I was 9, my Dad brought home one of his co-workers, who was almost 100 pounds more than me, and obviously a couple of inches taller than me, he said "Do you think you can tackle me ?" I said "I think so". We lined up in 3 point stances, he came at me with the ball, I watched his waist, the body always follows, exploded, wrapped around his waist, and down he went. Moral of the story, I don't give a **** that Ward is smaller than Gronk. You can always take down a bigger guy correctly.

Wow. I'm just going to not comment on this.

Your last paragraph, that has nothing to do with the Gronk play, having poor angles and still trying to tackle (shoestring tackles etc), I agree you can't always wrap up, but Ward could have tackled higher and easily wrapped up, Gronk wasn't even looking at him, easy tackle

.
It was response to you saying you can ALWAYSV wrap up, not specifically this play.

I've said enough about this subject, I'm done. Those who agree with me, understand that tackling is a lost art.

There is no doubt the quality of tackling is poor, but bemoaning it also ignores the speed and power of the NFL game.

Those who don't, I can't help you understand my stance any more. My final thoughts are, was it an illegal hit, obviously not, it's not against the rules. Was it a DIRTY hit ? I don't think the guy wanted to hurt Gronk, but when you launch yourself with your helmet and shoulder pads at full speed, that's your intent to aim at the lower leg (which is where your knee is). It's like I said earlier, it's like pointing a gun at someone's knee, pulling the trigger, and then claiming your intent wasn't to injure the knee, same intent, same results. So not illegal, maybe not dirty, but I will fight anyone to the death that says it was a GOOD tackle or PERFECT tackle. Then you are just stupid and dead wrong if you say that. Poor tackling on that hit.

Intent would require that he tried to injure the knee. I have little doubt that he felt this was the best way to make the tackle, and injuring the player was the last thing on his mind.
In any event, I now clearly understand your position, thanks for clarifying.

 

[IllegalContact]

I don't see where he kind of admits to going after gronk's knees

he made a legal play, he did not launch himself.

it sucks, but ward did nothing wrong.....

 

[IllegalContact]

Nice try, but you can't escape this one by saying my feeling that Ward did nothing wrong is a positive Patriots spin.



That is just wrong. I'm sure you believe it, but it just isnt true. The injury occured at impact. Wrapping your arms after impact would do nothing to change that.


Wrapping up is FINISHING the tackle. Of course it is a more effective way of tackling, but it has nothing to do with causing injuries.



You are comparing a 10 year old to a 200lb safety tackling a 270 lb TE? That is a great example of where you are off here.
Players do not wrap up because just like any other function on a football field, perfection is hard to attain.


Of course not because your standard is whacked out.
You just said you have never seen a tackle broken after the tackle was completed. The point again is that whether he wrapped his arms or not has nothing to do with injury.


Wow. I'm just going to not comment on this.

.
It was response to you saying you can ALWAYSV wrap up, not specifically this play.


There is no doubt the quality of tackling is poor, but bemoaning it also ignores the speed and power of the NFL game.


Intent would require that he tried to injure the knee. I have little doubt that he felt this was the best way to make the tackle, and injuring the player was the last thing on his mind.
In any event, I now clearly understand your position, thanks for clarifying.

it was a clean hit....case closed

 

[Ivan]

How many times did Cleveland try to do the same thing to other ball carriers, I think someone else tried to hurdle an attempted knee tackle, and Boyce had to watch out for an attempted trip. I believe the Pats saw this on film prior to the game too and were aware that Cleveland's defense is tackling low (near the knees)

I don't think it is just the Brown's by any stretch, and the truth is that I don't care who does it, any player who dives at a player's knees should be thrown out of the game, and if i am the Patriots I respond in kind any time they deliberately injure one of my players. I don't care if it is a head shot or a knee shot there is a clear difference between trying to tackle a player and deliberately trying to injure a player, and imo there is no room for it in any sport, and the bullsh.t Branden Meriweather response that he " has no choice" is crap and whomever it is that repays that POS in kind will get my applause. I hope someone deliberately ends his career and I hope that message gets through to all the other dirtballs who aren't good enough to play in the league but get by through playing dirty. It is no different than a guy like John Scott of the Sabres or Matt Cooke, formerly of the Penguins, neither is good enough to get by on talent and both only exist to injure opposing players. Unfortunately a hockey mentality is going to have to come into play in the NFL, and if they deliberately take out one of yours then you have to deliberately take out one of theirs. And if Belichick sees any of this garbage from the dolphins this week he should respond by putting one of them out of action. I am so sick of this crap, every year the Patriots are losing really good players to cheap shots and it needs to stop. I honestly cannot remember the last time a football play has pissed me off as much as this one did, but it was probably when Meriweather went after Todd Heap's head, which was as dirty as it gets and should have gotten him a year suspension.

 

[Kdo5]

I don't think it is just the Brown's by any stretch, and the truth is that I don't care who does it, any player who dives at a player's knees should be thrown out of the game, and if i am the Patriots I respond in kind any time they deliberately injure one of my players. I don't care if it is a head shot or a knee shot there is a clear difference between trying to tackle a player and deliberately trying to injure a player, and imo there is no room for it in any sport, and the bullsh.t Branden Meriweather response that he " has no choice" is crap and whomever it is that repays that POS in kind will get my applause. I hope someone deliberately ends his career and I hope that message gets through to all the other dirtballs who aren't good enough to play in the league but get by through playing dirty. It is no different than a guy like John Scott of the Sabres or Matt Cooke, formerly of the Penguins, neither is good enough to get by on talent and both only exist to injure opposing players. Unfortunately a hockey mentality is going to have to come into play in the NFL, and if they deliberately take out one of yours then you have to deliberately take out one of theirs. And if Belichick sees any of this garbage from the dolphins this week he should respond by putting one of them out of action. I am so sick of this crap, every year the Patriots are losing really good players to cheap shots and it needs to stop. I honestly cannot remember the last time a football play has pissed me off as much as this one did, but it was probably when Meriweather went after Todd Heap's head, which was as dirty as it gets and should have gotten him a year suspension.

Everyone shook Big Bang Clock's comments off as him being a Dbag and indeed he may be. But he was right. Ward acknowledging that he wanted to avoid fines and suspensions is exactly what he was saying would happen.

 

[Kontradiction]

Thanks for your deep detailed rebuttal.

You can feel free to reference any of the other 40 posts I've made on the subject where I've countered that line of thinking.

 

[Ivan]

After seeing BB's death stare directed at Ward, wouldn't be surprised if he told Logan Ryan to target Gordon's knees later in the game

That's only because Belichick lacks critical thinking skills and doesn't understand the basics of tackling. If he knew more about football he wouldn't have been so angry.

 

[PATSNUTme]

As upset as I am about the loss of Gronk for the year, I would love to call it a dirty illegal hit, to help ease my pain. However at the time and after watching numerous replays I think it was a legal hit and probably done with no intent to injure.

I read somewhere and I can't provide a link, that there have been 40
ACL injuries this year through week 14, as opposed to 32 all of last year. Are the rules having an effect on those? I am assuming that the rules are making defenders going lower with their tackles.

 

[Ivan]

Everyone shook Big Bang Clock's comments off as him being a Dbag and indeed he may be. But he was right. Ward acknowledging that he wanted to avoid fines and suspensions is exactly what he was saying would happen.

No problem, i just hope that he gets the same as he gives, and the same goes for Ward. If someone ends their careers with a shot to the knees they will just be "avoiding the fine."

 

[Ring 6]

No problem, i just hope that he gets the same as he gives, and the same goes for Ward. If someone ends their careers with a shot to the knees they will just be "avoiding the fine."

So you feel Ward egregiously and purposefully tried to injure a player and it mortifies you, but you want someone to do it to him?