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National Labor Relations Board gives Northwestern players the right to unionize


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QuantumMechanic

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Peter Ohr, the regional N.L.R.B. director, tore down that familiar construct in a 24-page decision. He ruled that all Northwestern’s scholarship football players should be eligible to form a union based on a litany of factors, including how much time they devote to football (as many as 50 hours during some weeks), the control exerted by the coaching staff and their scholarships, which Ohr deemed a contract for compensation. “It cannot be said that the employer’s scholarship players are ‘primarily students,' ” the decision said.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/s...n-players-are-employees-and-can-unionize.html)

I'm no Democrat, but the way colleges make scads of money off the players and then hypocritically say players shouldn't be able to make any money at all, makes it hard to be annoyed by this.
 
I have no idea how much they end up making but there's tons of non revenue sports that are supported by football and basketball. Almost all women's sports and a good amount of mens too.

Also if they unionize they very likely become employees and get to pay taxes. The players at the top schools playing the top sports get a rough deal but the others get a great deal for non revenue sports that few care about.
 
As some who deals with college athletic budgets all the time, people would be shocked to learn that colleges lose tens of millions on sports yearly.

Coaches make money on them--no one else does.

But the ruling itself was horrendously bad reasoning. I'd like to see where the labor official got his law degree. The ruling had holes I could drive a truck through.

Here's the official who made the ruling. "Athletes are not like other students performing a service for scholarships because":

1. "In finding that they [Brown graduate instructors] were “primarily students,” the Board held that “students serving as graduate student assistants spend only a limited number of hours performing their duties, and it is beyond dispute that their principal time commitment at Brown is focused on obtaining a degree and, thus, being a student.”

He claims football players spend 40 hours a week at practice. I think this is against NCAA rules. Regardless, grad instructors at many universities teach 2 classes a semester, and they are told that each class takes about 20-25 hours. I think the official is just plain wrong about time constraints. Teaching may actually require more time.

2. "(1) the graduate assistants received the same compensation as the graduate fellows for whom no teaching or research was required; and (2) the graduate assistants’ compensation was not tied to the quality of their work. Unlike the graduate assistants, the facts here show that the Employer never offer a scholarship to a prospective student unless they intend to provide an athletic service to the Employer. In fact, the players can have their scholarships immediately canceled if they voluntarily withdraw from the football team."

Scholarships are given to other non-athletes all the time. And, grad assistants' scholarships are tied to the quality of their work. Students who can't teach do not have their scholarships renewed. It happens all the time. In science heavy disciplines, I'm sure there are research TAs to whom teaching is not the service rendered, but even then, they have to perform their lab duties satisfactorily. If a TA refuses to teach (i.e. drops off the football team) his scholarship is revoked.

3. Here, the Employer’s scholarship players are in a different position than the graduate assistants since the academic faculty members do not oversee the athletic duties that the players’ perform. Instead, football coaches, who are not members of the academic faculty, are responsible for supervising the players’ athletic duties.

Unfortunately, many of us can remember the stories of Pat Dye teaching football 101 at Auburn. Many coaches actually teach classes. Ugh.

4. "Athletic Duties do not Constitute a Core Element of Their Educational Degree Requirements. The second factor that the Board considered in Brown University was the extent to which the graduate assistants’ teaching and research duties constituted a core element of their graduate degree requirements."

The official badly botched this one. In any department, there are benighted students who get a scholarship without having to teach or perform other duties, and they perfectly fulfill their academic requirements, which means teaching is service. Not part of your academic requirement. You don't have to teach or perform a service to get your degree. Many don't.

Frankly, I'm stunned that the official got so much wrong in this ruling.
 
The reason I support this decision is that I hope it's the catalyst that finally ends the NCAA as an entity. They've become a monster and, like the SAT program, exist solely to make money off of college students and programs.

Others may see it differently, but this is how I view it.
 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/s...n-players-are-employees-and-can-unionize.html)

I'm no Democrat, but the way colleges make scads of money off the players and then hypocritically say players shouldn't be able to make any money at all, makes it hard to be annoyed by this.

The abuse of college athletes in the revenue producing sports of football and basketball is endemic. That institutions like Northwestern (and Duke and Stanford, etc.) are full participants in this exploitation of athletes, a majority of whom are black, calls into question their supposed liberal values. At a minimum, every university that plays big time football should be required to pay for extended medical coverage, perhaps for a lifetime, for players who suffer serious injury on the gridiron while representing said institution.
 
As some who deals with college athletic budgets all the time, people would be shocked to learn that colleges lose tens of millions on sports yearly.

Coaches make money on them--no one else does.

But the ruling itself was horrendously bad reasoning. I'd like to see where the labor official got his law degree. The ruling had holes I could drive a truck through.

Here's the official who made the ruling. "Athletes are not like other students performing a service for scholarships because":



He claims football players spend 40 hours a week at practice. I think this is against NCAA rules. Regardless, grad instructors at many universities teach 2 classes a semester, and they are told that each class takes about 20-25 hours. I think the official is just plain wrong about time constraints. Teaching may actually require more time.



Scholarships are given to other non-athletes all the time. And, grad assistants' scholarships are tied to the quality of their work. Students who can't teach do not have their scholarships renewed. It happens all the time. In science heavy disciplines, I'm sure there are research TAs to whom teaching is not the service rendered, but even then, they have to perform their lab duties satisfactorily. If a TA refuses to teach (i.e. drops off the football team) his scholarship is revoked.



Unfortunately, many of us can remember the stories of Pat Dye teaching football 101 at Auburn. Many coaches actually teach classes. Ugh.



The official badly botched this one. In any department, there are benighted students who get a scholarship without having to teach or perform other duties, and they perfectly fulfill their academic requirements, which means teaching is service. Not part of your academic requirement. You don't have to teach or perform a service to get your degree. Many don't.

Frankly, I'm stunned that the official got so much wrong in this ruling.

Graduate students also receive stipends alongside their full-tuition scholarships. Athletes do not. And the 'benighted students' were satisfactorily covered in the part of the decision that mentioned graduate fellows. 40 hours a week at practice is against NCAA regulations, but if you expand 'practice' to include film study, weight training, team dinners, etc - otherwise known as things that have nothing to do with academics - you're well over 40.

The academy and sports should be decoupled and amateurism should end. It's a marriage based on history and exploited because it makes some institutions (and the NCAA) a ton of money, and the sooner it goes away, the better it is for both the athletes and the vast majority of Americans who attend institutions of higher learning.

The effective result of non-wage labor by "student-athletes" is the theft of economic power - most notably black economic power - by a cartel of universities, the NCAA, and the professional leagues that are able to use this as a farm system for free development.

Be you a socialist (as I am) or free market capitalist, this form of uncompensated labor is antithetical to your ideology (since, for a classical liberal, a person should be free to negotiate wages based on the demand for their skills - which is pretty high, given the rarity and the amount of money in the industry). The only argument is for tradition. The canard of it subsidizing other athletics doesn't hold since most departments are in the red anyways. Time for a new model, but let the new model be what's up for debate - not keeping this exploitative dinosaur alive.
 
The fact that I get paid more money than any college athlete setting up computers and projectors in the morning at my college is crazy to me. Way to go Northwestern.
 
(http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/s...n-players-are-employees-and-can-unionize.html)

I'm no Democrat, but the way colleges make scads of money off the players and then hypocritically say players shouldn't be able to make any money at all, makes it hard to be annoyed by this.
See, that's true as far as football and (men's) basketball goes, but that really isn't true for the entire athletic department.

If they have to pay football and basketball players, other sports will suffer. A lot.
 
See, that's true as far as football and (men's) basketball goes, but that really isn't true for the entire athletic department.

If they have to pay football and basketball players, other sports will suffer. A lot.

Most athletic departments already lose a ton of money (that is, the schools are subsidizing those sports out of general revenue, not the football/basketball programs) so I'm not certain how it could hurt them more than it already does.
 
I have no idea how much they end up making but there's tons of non revenue sports that are supported by football and basketball. Almost all women's sports and a good amount of mens too.

Also if they unionize they very likely become employees and get to pay taxes. The players at the top schools playing the top sports get a rough deal but the others get a great deal for non revenue sports that few care about.
From what I understand, they can (theoretically) also be fired.

"Oh, you're not good enough to make the team? You're injured? OK, we're taking away your scholarship and room and board. You're welcome to continue attending this institution, but it'll be $26,000 per semester if you choose to do so."
 
From what I understand, they can (theoretically) also be fired.

"Oh, you're not good enough to make the team? You're injured? OK, we're taking away your scholarship and room and board. You're welcome to continue attending this institution, but it'll be $26,000 per semester if you choose to do so."

This not only already happens but it was covered in the decision. Unionization is a way to prevent this from being an easy process that can be made at-will as it is now.
 
Most athletic departments already lose a ton of money (that is, the schools are subsidizing those sports out of general revenue, not the football/basketball programs) so I'm not certain how it could hurt them more than it already does.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the generic school or the big name, power conference programs...... so let me say this:

If you took an Alabama or FSU or Duke or Kentucky and made their basketball or football programs a financial wash, then other programs at those same schools would suffer. A lot. The simple fact is that football and basketball are funding those other programs.

You think Florida State women's field hockey can exist on its own from TV and ticket revenue?
 
This not only already happens but it was covered in the decision. Unionization is a way to prevent this from being an easy process that can be made at-will as it is now.
I don't think my post was terribly clear, so let me clarify:

Nobody gets expelled for not being good enough to make the team. Maybe they can't afford it and maybe they have to transfer, but you don't get kicked off campus.
 
I'm not sure if you're talking about the generic school or the big name, power conference programs...... so let me say this:

If you took an Alabama or FSU or Duke or Kentucky and made their basketball or football programs a financial wash, then other programs at those same schools would suffer. A lot. The simple fact is that football and basketball are funding those other programs.

You think women's field hockey can exist on its own from TV and ticket revenue?

That's not a simple fact at all.The mere fact that women's field hockey exists at many schools that are not Duke or FSU or Alabama (in fact, Old Dominion is the winningest program of all-time) demonstrates that it's not as simple as you say. It may be that - assuming the academy and athletics continue to hold together (they should not) - schools like Duke are no longer able to field a women's field hockey team, but instead other schools (like Old Dominion) which are willing to subsidize these sports pick up the slack.

And then there's the fact that sports that aren't men's basketball or football are played by men and women aged 18 to 22 in other countries which don't have America's idiosyncratic 'student-athlete' system.
 
I don't think my post was terribly clear, so let me clarify:

Nobody gets expelled for not being good enough to make the team. Maybe they can't afford it and maybe they have to transfer, but you don't get kicked off campus.

That didn't clarify anything at all. You can currently be kicked off your athletic scholarship without cause. Your argument was that, if players are recognized as employees and unionize, they can be kicked off their athletic scholarships without cause. So there will be no change. But in reality, the union will prevent this from happening, so your argument is actually counterproductive.
 
This ruling just put a huge smile on my face, and I have no idea when its going to wear off. :D
 
This ruling just put a huge smile on my face, and I have no idea when its going to wear off. :D

I'm a centrist - not a member of either party.

Labor/Management relations is about a balance

Unions serve a legitimate purpose to help restore balance when "management" is out of control as the NCAA appears to be in regard to how they utilize non-paid employees, and where those profits are going

That being said, quite often these days Unions themselves are out of control - with leadership structures that rival that of entities... oh, say like the NCAA. And at some point a Union can begin to fail the workers it claims to represent.

This is the right, and appropriate decision to restore balance, and I'm interested to see it develop further.

It's somewhat like the ACLU - sometimes I think the ACLU doesn't have ACLUE in taking things to extremes - but when you need them, you're REALLY glad they're there to protect essential rights

If this stands it's going to be very interesting to watch
 
This ruling just put a huge smile on my face, and I have no idea when its going to wear off. :D

You must really hate College Sports! Everything the Union touches turns to crap,ALA Detroit,the public school system,the post office etc. etc.
 
You must really hate College Sports! Everything the Union touches turns to crap,ALA Detroit,the public school system,the post office etc. etc.

It wasn't through the generosity of employers that the 40 hour work week occurred, or paid vacations (or any vacations for that matter), or job based health benefits, or workplace safety standards, or the end of child labor, etc. I am well aware of union abuses, but a statement like yours bespeaks an unfathomable ignorance.
 
That didn't clarify anything at all. You can currently be kicked off your athletic scholarship without cause. Your argument was that, if players are recognized as employees and unionize, they can be kicked off their athletic scholarships without cause. So there will be no change. But in reality, the union will prevent this from happening, so your argument is actually counterproductive.
Yes there will be a change. A player on scholarship cannot lose it in the middle of the year. I never meant to imply the schools must renew it every year, so I don't know if that is what you thought I was saying. Any footballer on scholarship that gets cut from the team in September gets to finish the school year on his free ride (assuming, of course, we are not talking about disciplinary reasons). Of course, there's really no incentive to cut a player because you can pretty much have as many as you want on your roster.

No one is really sure what the consequences of this decision will be, but an awful lot of people smarter than you or me say that if someone is an "employee" and the scholarship is their "pay" then they'll lose it immediately if cut... much like how a pro team stops paying someone they cut.

So yeah, that would really suck if you think you're set through May and you find yourself "unemployed" (i.e. out of school) in mid September.
 
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