Mallett vs Hoyer - No Clear Winner Monday Night

[DaBruinz]

I was very disappointed in Hoyer's play last night. On the strip sack, he didn't step up at all even though he clearly saw that Cannon was being driven back and behind him. There were several pass attempts that were just plain horrible by Hoyer. He played like rookie who had never seen an opposing teams #1 defense.

And, just because he didn't have Edelman in there, he did have Ebert, Branch, and Stallworth. As for Silvestro and Urban, those two have been taking a monster amount of reps with the 1st team because of everything going on with Gronk, Hernandez, Fells, and Shiancoe.

I'm not saying Hoyer is a lost cause. Just saying his play was disappointing last night.

 

[Ian]

I want to see somebody turn the keys and start up the Lexus.

You know what I mean - the starting OL including Connolly, Solder, Waters, Mankins and Vollmer, the starting receiver group, and driver's choice of running backs.

Comparing Mallett and Hoyer last night with 26 guys not playing was like trying to figure out which one would be a better quarterback at the running of the bulls in Pamplona. It was chaotic.

The pre-season, especially with a screwball schedule like this, sucks.

It was more of a case of who could make lemonade out of a bunch of lemons. I felt like I didn't walk away any better off than before the game started.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This is actually an oustanding, well thought out post.:rocker:

Only problem with the philosophy is that if they lose one for every one they win, BB will take the game manager every time. BB can build a team around a guy he knows he can rely on as opposed to random flashes of brilliance vs. frustratingly mind numbing mistakes. And Mallett will be long gone by 27 while Brady intends to remain here until 40 or more.

 

[PatsDeb]

I want to see somebody turn the keys and start up the Lexus.

You know what I mean - the starting OL including Connolly, Solder, Waters, Mankins and Vollmer, the starting receiver group, and driver's choice of running backs.

Comparing Mallett and Hoyer last night with 26 guys not playing was like trying to figure out which one would be a better quarterback at the running of the bulls in Pamplona. It was chaotic.

The pre-season, especially with a screwball schedule like this, sucks.

I just hope it isn't a Lexus body disguising a Volkswagon chassis.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That was my thought after I watched it back this morning. Had he stepped up he might have been able to get the throw off. On the plus side unfortunately Cannon needs these games to get the work in. Better to struggle now than in 3 weeks.

According to Yates he was toast either way.

Hoyer was strip sacked by Phillip Hunt on Hoyer's second play on the field. Hunt exploded off the football and easily beat Patriots right tackle Marcus Cannon, who had some tough moments throughout the night. On this particular play, it was clear from early on that Cannon was in trouble, as he almost immediately was forced to turn his shoulders to try to keep up with Hunt, which opened the gate for Hunt to turn the corner and drive on Hoyer. Truth be told, if it hadn't been Hunt to force the fumble, it would have been Darryl Tapp coming off of the other side, as he too managed to beat Nate Solder. Tapp told me after that game that his successful rush on that play derived from a good jump on the snap. That jump was evident when watching it the second time around.

 

[IllegalContact]

patsfans.com doesn't know the ultimate answer because it isn't really "knowable".

Mo has his opinion

You have your opinion.

Both are speculative.

Interest in your opinion is really not that high.

thanks for your feedback, however meaningless it may be

 

[IllegalContact]

why such a need to make excuses for hoyer?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

why such a need to make excuses for hoyer?

There is a difference between making excuses and assessing or identifying why something happened and what it means. Bill talked about that with the QB's in particular and others just this week. Every TD isn't a good play and every INT isn't a bad play and it's not always the QB's fault - although sometimes it is. It depends on the call and the situation and responsibilities and who among 11 players executed poorly base on that knowledge.

 

[IllegalContact]

I don't know about that - but I'm speaking in general considering all the bad QB's that have come and gone in this game. Chad Pennington is the first one who comes to mind, because at the tail end he had a weak arm but was at least smart enough with his decision making to not make a bad throw.

In theory the guys that have the mental capacity to read defenses and go through progressions are the ones you want, even if they have a weak arm. Don't forget, they - in theory - can at least get into a workout regime and strengthen it. Brady's actually a good example of that.

yep......and how many years did it take for pennington to step onto a field as a starter? he was 26 when he started his first game in his 3rd year.

seen brady make some poor decisions, too.......all QB's make 'em

 

[Ian]

yep......and how many years did it take for pennington to step onto a field as a starter? he was 26 when he started his first game in his 3rd year.

seen brady make some poor decisions, too.......all QB's make 'em

True, but I was responding to your other post where you said "the decison making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot". Don't get me wrong, I'm with you in that I'm hoping Mallett can continue to progress and like a couple others had mentioned I'd love to see what he (and Hoyer) could do with the first team group. I just don't know if we're going to get that chance and it leaves us without much else - other than what we saw last night - to go on.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I guess you could make that comparison. Brady in 2001 was much quicker and more decisive than the 2012 Mallett (and better accuracy), even though Mallett has a stronger arm than Brady did at that point in his career. I remember thinking that he definitely looked better than Bledsoe and I was worried that it could be a problem if Drew struggled midseason (and I was a HUGE Bledsoe fan). Who would have expected things to happen to Drew the way they did...it's just one of those things and obviously changed everything.

But for the sake of keeping this on point, again when you're considering who will eventually replace Brady, I don't know yet if Mallett can be that guy. Don't get me wrong, he had his moments, but I still think he has a long way to go. With Brady I had a feeling, with Mallett I just don't know.

Ian

You guess you could make the comparison?

That is the comparison.

Besides, what part of the 2001 offense wasn't "quick and decisive" friendly? Short passing doesn't tend to be long thought out exercises.

Also, what part of playing with 2/3 string skill players against a high echelon 1 strings supports "quick and decisive" decision making? Especially in the absense of a gameplan.

What should "quick and decisive" decision making look like in these circumstances? What exactly makes one think this would apply if Lloyd, Welker, Gronk, AHern were out there and with a fully thought out gameplan?

Many may not realize this but the Patriots actually played the Eagles last year. A review of that contest would actually show the opening phase of that game following a very similiar path. (patsfans.com was in hari kari mode mid Q1).

 

[patsfan13]

Mallett had a good night under the circumstances, 1 bad decision in 36 plays is pretty good.

We need to remember that the Eagles in addition to playing their starters (which we didn't) had 1 OL starter in the position he will play this year. The Eagles also game planned for this game we did not. That makes a huge difference for the QB. Both QB's in this case.

Mallett has only had this TC + this season's OTA's.

Not saying he is Brady but how many reps did Brady have at this point in his second season, 12 years ago? How many practices? Many more than Mallett.

Mallett is progressing nicely IMO.

 

[DaBruinz]

According to Yates he was toast either way.

Yates is entitled to his opinion, but he clearly didn't re-watch the play. Had Hoyer stepped up and to his right, he'd have had time to get rid of the ball. Tapp would have had to go around Cannon AND Hunt to get to Hoyer. It was something that stood out last night that Hoyer didn't seem to be re-acting the way he has in the past..

I reposted the entirety of my original post since it was edited, accidentally, by an admin. I am not saying that Hoyer cost himself a spot last night. Just that he had a bad game.

 

[IllegalContact]

True, but I was responding to your other post where you said "the decison making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot". Don't get me wrong, I'm with you in that I'm hoping Mallett can continue to progress and like a couple others had mentioned I'd love to see what he (and Hoyer) could do with the first team group. I just don't know if we're going to get that chance and it leaves us without much else - other than what we saw last night - to go on.

considering everything that we've seen, I see a much higher top end for Mallett. In him, I see a player who can be an elite QB (what it takes to get to the top these days). I just don't see it in Hoyer..........I see a career backup and that's it....basically another damon huard.

there is no point if his best won't get you close....in the end, it may be the same story with mallet, but as of right now, hoyer is the only 'can't-hit' QB on the team

 

[Ian]

Ian

You guess you could make the comparison?

That is the comparison.

Besides, what part of the 2001 offense wasn't "quick and decisive" friendly? Short passing doesn't tend to be long thought out exercises.

Also, what part of playing with 2/3 string skill players against a high echelon 1 strings supports "quick and decisive" decision making? Especially in the absense of a gameplan.

What should "quick and decisive" decision making look like in these circumstances? What exactly makes one think this would apply if Lloyd, Welker, Gronk, AHern were out there and with a fully thought out gameplan?

Many may not realize this but the Patriots actually played the Eagles last year. A review of that contest would actually show the opening phase of that game following a very similiar path. (patsfans.com was in hari kari mode mid Q1).

It's not like I don't agree with you I thought we were just having a friendly discussion and went with your premise (which was a good one) for the sake of comparing Brady and Mallett at the early stage of both of their careers, and it's an interesting comparison. They're different players, and I do think Brady was a better decision maker at that point in his career. Obviously he won a Super Bowl in his second year - I don't see Mallett doing that...at least not yet

However, the point of the initial conversation was just where Mallett is compared to Hoyer at this point. As I've said (and wrote) I wasn't impressed with either overall last night, and I do have some doubts about Mallett long-term, but that doesn't mean I believe Hoyer would necessarily be the answer either.

As a matter of fact It's too bad Hoyer didn't have a big game last night. I'm guessing if history is any indication there will be a team in need of a QB in a couple of weeks, so it wouldn't hurt if he had a good game between now and the end of the preseason.

 

[Ian]

considering everything that we've seen, I see a much higher top end for Mallett. In him, I see a player who can be an elite QB (what it takes to get to the top these days). I just don't see it in Hoyer..........I see a career backup and that's it....basically another damon huard.

there is no point if his best won't get you close....in the end, it may be the same story with mallet, but as of right now, hoyer is the only 'can't-hit' QB on the team

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that point. As I've said I wasn't impressed with either overall last night, and I do have some doubts about Mallett long-term, but that doesn't mean I believe Hoyer would necessarily be the answer either.

Elite's a big word and would put him in the category of Brady, Manning, Rodgers...and he's obviously not there yet. Until he puts together a better string of games it's tough to believe otherwise. After all, we all thought Cassell was going to become better than he's been and it still hasn't happened. I hope it does, but so far it hasn't worked out that way.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

It's not like I don't agree with you I thought we were just having a friendly discussion and went with your premise (which was a good one) for the sake of comparing Brady and Mallett at the early stage of both of their careers, and it's an interesting comparison. They're different players, and I do think Brady was a better decision maker at that point in his career. Obviously he won a Super Bowl in his second year - I don't see Mallett doing that...at least not yet

However, the point of the initial conversation was just where Mallett is compared to Hoyer at this point. As I've said (and wrote) I wasn't impressed with either overall last night, and I do have some doubts about Mallett long-term, but that doesn't mean I believe Hoyer would necessarily be the answer either.

As a matter of fact It's too bad Hoyer didn't have a big game last night. I'm guessing if history is any indication there will be a team in need of a QB in a couple of weeks, so it wouldn't hurt if he had a good game between now and the end of the preseason.

"You are what you measure"- Robert Bartley

The key behind the evaluation is the evaluation process.

How you were attacking the problem intellectually gives the best indication behind the conclusions.

It's not enough to know how Ian feels.....it's how Ian thinks....

 

[patsfan13]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that point. As I've said I wasn't impressed with either overall last night, and I do have some doubts about Mallett long-term, but that doesn't mean I believe Hoyer would necessarily be the answer either.

Elite's a big word and would put him in the category of Brady, Manning, Rodgers...and he's obviously not there yet. Until he puts together a better string of games it's tough to believe otherwise. After all, we all thought Cassell was going to become better than he's been and it still hasn't happened. I hope it does, but so far it hasn't worked out that way.

Mallett's college career was very disjointed going from Carr to Petrino. With the lockout last year and being the 3rd QB behind Brady and Hoyer last year he hasn't gotten many reps in practice or in games. A Luck has probably gotten as many pro reps as Mallett at this point.

IF IF Mallett wins the #2 this year it would IMO be better to trade Hoyer and get Mallett the extra practice reps to speed his development.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mallett's college career was very disjointed going from Carr to Petrino. With the lockout last year and being the 3rd QB behind Brady and Hoyer last year he hasn't gotten many reps in practice or in games. A Luck has probably gotten as many pro reps as Mallett at this point.

IF IF Mallett wins the #2 this year it would IMO be better to trade Hoyer and get Mallett the extra practice reps to speed his development.

IF IF Mallett wins the #2 this year Hoyer won't have any value in trade and they'd cut him like KOC to save $1.9M against the cap knowing they could probably reel him back in in an emergency like Gutz because no one would be scrambling to pick him up.

Whereas, IF IF Mallett doesn't win the #2 this year, and he's behind in practice as were Cassel's challengers whether it shows in stilted pre season games or not, they will probably keep him since if Brady went down they'd need a backup to the replacement who had some familiarity with the system and he's still under contract cheaply for 3 more years with some remaining potential upside.

After an equally disjointed college career Foles was the rookie #3 QB behink Vick and Kafka and he's gotten fewer reps and was less highly touted though just as tall as Mallett yet as a rookie he stepped in COLD and opened eyes.

If Bill feels Hoyer is a more competent #2 again this season, there is no way he is trading him. If he doesn't, he probably gets cut. Mallett would have to be at least as competent for that to happen, and most folks just don't see it.

 

[Ian]

Someone put together a great compilation video of every play from Mallett last night. When you see it in this light, you can actually see that he was a little better than my impression watching it live last night, especially given the protection breakdowns in some of these plays:

Ryan Mallett vs Eagles PS Game 2 - YouTube