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Malcolm Butler Mega Thread


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The defense was awful. assuming butler would be the savior is a stretch considering
1) we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there
2) Bill Belichick after coaching him due 4 years and watching him practice felt he couldn’t help the team
3) there were likely other factors going on that would have affected his performance
Your argument would hold up better Andy if BB had put Butler in for the 2nd half and we got the same results. The fact that he didn't even try, when the defense as a whole (not Butler individually necessarily) was playing well down the stretch (not sure where you are getting "we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there," unless you are talking about the first game of the year, which even you have to admit, I hope is a stretch), but suddenly went to God awful with the benching of Butler, shows a collosal coaching blunder (or hubris, however you want to term it) on the part of BB. It was the Super Bowl for God's sakes! Why aren't you going for broke? Why aren't you putting one of your best (statistically speaking) players out there when the guys you have out there are lost and not getting it done? Even if you're pissed at Butler or think "he can't help the team" (A "c'mon man!" statement for me every time I see someone type it)? What you put out there certainly wasn't helping the team, and that's on BB too - telling Rowe 5 minutes before the game he's starting in place of Butler and playing his position? Another "C'mon man!" moment. Every time I think about it I feel the steam coming out of the top of my head.
 
Your argument would hold up better Andy if BB had put Butler in for the 2nd half and we got the same results. The fact that he didn't even try, when the defense as a whole (not Butler individually necessarily) was playing well down the stretch (not sure where you are getting "we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there," unless you are talking about the first game of the year, which even you have to admit, I hope is a stretch), but suddenly went to God awful with the benching of Butler, shows a collosal coaching blunder (or hubris, however you want to term it) on the part of BB. It was the Super Bowl for God's sakes! Why aren't you going for broke? Why aren't you putting one of your best (statistically speaking) players out there when the guys you have out there are lost and not getting it done? Even if you're pissed at Butler or think "he can't help the team" (A "c'mon man!" statement for me every time I see someone type it)? What you put out there certainly wasn't helping the team, and that's on BB too - telling Rowe 5 minutes before the game he's starting in place of Butler and playing his position? Another "C'mon man!" moment. Every time I think about it I feel the steam coming out of the top of my head.
The irony is that BB went for it on 4th and 5 instead of trying a FG, tried the pass to brady etc and took chances with those play calls. But he felt taking a chance to play butler on a single snap was risky. Go figure.
 
The Pats have the worst defensive performance of Belichick's coaching career, 41 points and 530+ yards and this guy has the audacity to say that the defense with Butler could have been worse. After the defense with Butler starting allowed 14.4 points per game in the last 14 games.

His proof? The first game of the year, a game with 20+ new players, a game where the secondary was in it's infancy and it took 4-5 game to solidify and fix the communication issues.

Andy Johnson you're an embarrassment to critical thinking, to logic, to reason and to your inability to realize your Belichick dogmatism.
 
The defense was awful. assuming butler would be the savior is a stretch considering
1) we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there
2) Bill Belichick after coaching him due 4 years and watching him practice felt he couldn’t help the team
3) there were likely other factors going on that would have affected his performance

The defense was awful largely because of Belichick`s "game plan". He decided to put Rowe on Jeffery - after not telling him he is going to start and against whom right until the last moment. You dont pay Gilmore big bucks to cover #3 WR who had like 3 targets/30 yards per game. Then he had SS - a guy whose primary designation is to erase other team`s best TE - in slot to cover WR, assigning that same TE to FS - a guy who used to cover WRs while playing CB. So, after seeing all this, would you be inclined to believe Belichick had made a good decision regarding Butler and that his football reasoning before the game was sound?
 
Yep. He lost. We all did.

You know, I was feeling angry about this as well. I personally still watch the 1985 AFCGC. I watch the 2001, 2003 and 2014 SB all the time. This was a 500 yard passing performance from Brady that I should be joyfully watching over and over and over. But I can't.

I know this is stupid and selfish but it still hurts. Not sure why, but it hurts.

And another stupid thing is watching the Tom versus Time has made me feel really bad for Tom Brady. He held up his end. He should be a guy with 6 SB rings and 5 SB MVP awards. I can't believe I feel sad for a guy who gets to go to bed with Gisele B....
 
Your argument would hold up better Andy if BB had put Butler in for the 2nd half and we got the same results. The fact that he didn't even try, when the defense as a whole (not Butler individually necessarily) was playing well down the stretch (not sure where you are getting "we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there," unless you are talking about the first game of the year, which even you have to admit, I hope is a stretch), but suddenly went to God awful with the benching of Butler, shows a collosal coaching blunder (or hubris, however you want to term it) on the part of BB. It was the Super Bowl for God's sakes! Why aren't you going for broke? Why aren't you putting one of your best (statistically speaking) players out there when the guys you have out there are lost and not getting it done? Even if you're pissed at Butler or think "he can't help the team" (A "c'mon man!" statement for me every time I see someone type it)? What you put out there certainly wasn't helping the team, and that's on BB too - telling Rowe 5 minutes before the game he's starting in place of Butler and playing his position? Another "C'mon man!" moment. Every time I think about it I feel the steam coming out of the top of my head.

I bet he would have played Malcolm.

Pete-Carroll-Patriots.jpg
 
So your argument is because you don’t knkw the reason there must be no reason and you know better from afar than Bill Belichick I’m the trenches how to run a football team.


Let me ask you this. Why do you think belichick didn’t play butler?
I think he didn't play him because he doesn't like him, either because he wouldn't take less money than he wants, or he was mad when Gilmore was signed and threw a hissy fit, or he doesn't always do what his coaches tell him to do, either on the field or off of it, or all of these things and BB was fed up and wanted to embarrass him or show him exactly what he thinks of him, and this was his last chance to do it. Thus, the petty late benching after warm-ups, and the stupid surprise pulled on the rest of the team, and the refusal to play "situational football" and use the best guy on the bench when you were getting embarrassed on D all through the game, and certainly in the 2nd half when Brady started lighting them up and you had a very good chance to win. Don't give me this crap that there was no way he could help the team. C'mon Andy! You are a smart guy. Don't give BB a pass here. He doesn't deserve it from you or any other dedicated Pats fan. The defense, which we can all probably agree was weak on an individual basis almost all around, was strong as a unit in the 2nd half of the season. BB disrupted that unit (surprise everybody!) and REFUSED to fix it (when he could have) 5 minutes before the Super Bowl! All because he wanted to stick it to Butler. What a schmuck.
 
Your argument would hold up better Andy if BB had put Butler in for the 2nd half and we got the same results.

Actually my IMPRESSION (because it’s not an argument) would be changed if B.B. had put butler in because my impression is that there is a big reason he didn’t but we don’t realky know that reason.
I’m not going to guess but it was obviously such a big thing that belicichk felt he had to sit a starter and never put him in the game.
Unlike others here I do not believe that Bill Belichick just whimsically decided on Sb Sunday for no very good reason to not play a guy who was in the field almost every snap all year. I do not believe belichick thought that a NORMAL butler wouldn’t guve the team a better chance to win and I do not believe belichick just didn’t care about winning or threw the fame.
If there were no legitimate reason why would belichick pick the Sb of his 42nd year as an NFL coach to do something totally out of character with anything he has ever done before in order to reduce his teams chance of winning.

If you are going to dismiss that the was a Malcolm problem then you will have to explain why belichick acted like anti belichick.


The fact that he didn't even try, when the defense as a whole (not Butler individually necessarily) was playing well down the stretch (not sure where you are getting "we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there," unless you are talking about the first game of the year, which even you have to admit, I hope is a stretch),
I am using the first game of the year, against a remarkably similar offense, not to say it proves we wold have done better but to debunk the concept that if butler played we guaranteed would win.



but suddenly went to God awful with the benching of Butler, shows a collosal coaching blunder (or hubris, however you want to term it) on the part of BB.

My point remains that you can’t judge the decision without knowing the reasoning. We have heard from captains through Reiss that butler was struggling and demoted. I would agree struggling probably didn’t lead to zero snaps but it’s entirely possible his reaction which resulted in him crying through the national anthem may have caused belichick to lose any remaining confidence in him.
I don’t know.

But I do know Malcolm issues causing B.B. to feel he had to sit him are a much more likely explanation than B.B. forgot football.


It was the Super Bowl for God's sakes! Why aren't you going for broke?
Why aren't you putting one of your best (statistically speaking) players out there when the guys you have out there are lost and not getting it done?
That’s exactly the point. Why? You seem to want to think belichick just doesn’t understand how to coach. He has shown me a long run of success that tells me he does.
What is more likely belichick makes a rookie mistake for absolutely no reason and gives away a super bowl or you are not aware of the reason for it, and if you knew that reason you would have a different perspective?



Even if you're pissed at Butler or think "he can't help the team" (A "c'mon man!" statement for me every time I see someone type it)? What you put out there certainly wasn't helping the team, and that's on BB too - telling Rowe 5 minutes before the game he's starting in place of Butler and playing his position? Another "C'mon man!" moment. Every time I think about it I feel the steam coming out of the top of my head.
Rowe practiced with the 1s all week. He was ready.
Here is my take.
If B.B. just said for no reason f it lets just sit butler play lesser players and if we lose oh well then you would be right.
But there is just no chance that happened and your reaction is wrong at least to a number of degrees because of the readings behind it which you do not know, but also are pretending don’t exist.
 
You know, I was feeling angry about this as well. I personally still watch the 1985 AFCGC. I watch the 2001, 2003 and 2014 SB all the time. This was a 500 yard passing performance from Brady that I should be joyfully watching over and over and over. But I can't.

I know this is stupid and selfish but it still hurts. Not sure why, but it hurts.

And another stupid thing is watching the Tom versus Time has made me feel really bad for Tom Brady. He held up his end. He should be a guy with 6 SB rings and 5 SB MVP awards. I can't believe I feel sad for a guy who gets to go to bed with Gisele B....
I'll watch bits and pieces of the 85 game as well once a year maybe. Same for the 96 game.

07, 11, and this one? Nope. Can't do it.
 
I think he didn't play him because he doesn't like him,
I think we can stop there.
If your belief is that Bill Belichick would get to a Sb and then bench a guy he has played all season with because he doesn’t like him we just have no point in discussing.
There is nothing in belichicks history that says he has ever done anything like that. There is nothing in belichicks history that says he would let anything get in the way of winning.
 
Mayo and Ninkovich wouldn't be calling out Belichick in this situation if BB hadn't screwed it up.
Mayo and ninkovich, like you and I, do not know the reason
If you want to run around judging things without facts that’s up to you but it only means you are guessing wildly.
 
The defense was awful largely because of Belichick`s "game plan". He decided to put Rowe on Jeffery - after not telling him he is going to start and against whom right until the last moment.

Rowe worked with the 1s all week. Rowe was not consistently covering Jeffrey.


You dont pay Gilmore big bucks to cover #3 WR who had like 3 targets/30 yards per game. Then he had SS - a guy whose primary designation is to erase other team`s best TE - in slot to cover WR, assigning that same TE to FS - a guy who used to cover WRs while playing CB. So, after seeing all this, would you be inclined to believe Belichick had made a good decision regarding Butler and that his football reasoning before the game was sound?
Now you are just making things up.

As far a butler we do not know what caused the decision. How hard is that to understand?
 
I agree that BB is the greatest coach of all time, no question.

The point is that this decision was a colossal F'up, regardless of the protestations on the BB KoolAid crowd. It cost this franchise, my team for 60 years a 6th SB. It is never guaranteed we will get back there again.
Of course. It just seems as though some are going a bit overboard, that’s all.
 
The defense was awful. assuming butler would be the savior is a stretch considering
1) we played just as bad maybe worse with him in there
2) Bill Belichick after coaching him due 4 years and watching him practice felt he couldn’t help the team
3) there were likely other factors going on that would have affected his performance

1) There is no way Butler could have been worse than Rowe/Bademosi/Jordan - Butler was also a good tackler who adds speed to a slow defense. He was one of our top players this seasons and player 98% of all defensive snaps. Very dumb argument, you lose here
2) You proved my point, he made a huge mistake that cost us the SB. Thank you for making our argument
3) I don't care, we're playing int he SB, play your best and do your job. This is his last game as a Patriot

You lost this argument bad, please give up
 
Actually my IMPRESSION (because it’s not an argument) would be changed if B.B. had put butler in because my impression is that there is a big reason he didn’t but we don’t realky know that reason.
I’m not going to guess but it was obviously such a big thing that belicichk felt he had to sit a starter and never put him in the game.
Unlike others here I do not believe that Bill Belichick just whimsically decided on Sb Sunday for no very good reason to not play a guy who was in the field almost every snap all year. I do not believe belichick thought that a NORMAL butler wouldn’t guve the team a better chance to win and I do not believe belichick just didn’t care about winning or threw the fame.
If there were no legitimate reason why would belichick pick the Sb of his 42nd year as an NFL coach to do something totally out of character with anything he has ever done before in order to reduce his teams chance of winning.

If you are going to dismiss that the was a Malcolm problem then you will have to explain why belichick acted like anti belichick.



I am using the first game of the year, against a remarkably similar offense, not to say it proves we wold have done better but to debunk the concept that if butler played we guaranteed would win.




My point remains that you can’t judge the decision without knowing the reasoning. We have heard from captains through Reiss that butler was struggling and demoted. I would agree struggling probably didn’t lead to zero snaps but it’s entirely possible his reaction which resulted in him crying through the national anthem may have caused belichick to lose any remaining confidence in him.
I don’t know.

But I do know Malcolm issues causing B.B. to feel he had to sit him are a much more likely explanation than B.B. forgot football.



That’s exactly the point. Why? You seem to want to think belichick just doesn’t understand how to coach. He has shown me a long run of success that tells me he does.
What is more likely belichick makes a rookie mistake for absolutely no reason and gives away a super bowl or you are not aware of the reason for it, and if you knew that reason you would have a different perspective?




Rowe practiced with the 1s all week. He was ready.
Here is my take.
If B.B. just said for no reason f it lets just sit butler play lesser players and if we lose oh well then you would be right.
But there is just no chance that happened and your reaction is wrong at least to a number of degrees because of the readings behind it which you do not know, but also are pretending don’t exist.

How do you know there's no chance that happened? See here's why I don't like your arguments - BB is never going to admit why he benched Butler other than what he has already said, so you can always say I am wrong and you are right because we don't know the reason, or I am making up reasons (which you are doing too, by the way). The fact is Andy, there was no good "enough" reason to bench Butler for the entire game, even if there was a good reason to bench him to start the game, performance, disciplinary or whatever. The guys BB put out there, either to take Butler's place or who were moved around to account for Butler's absence were AWFUL, and whatever Butler's faults have been, played way WORSE than he has ever played. And it was the Super Bowl, the game where you pull out all the stops. BB just went with the stops. He became all the coaches he usually beats - he stuck with what wasn't working because that was the game plan. Worst "performance" by BB that I have ever seen.
 
This thing is still going on? Wow.


Hint: Butler checked out, BB couldn't trust him enough to start him. That's it. The scheme and matchups were off, so we lost. Gilmore was not on the right guy and BB didn't give Rowe help over the top. Period.
 
I think we can stop there.
If your belief is that Bill Belichick would get to a Sb and then bench a guy he has played all season with because he doesn’t like him we just have no point in discussing.
There is nothing in belichicks history that says he has ever done anything like that. There is nothing in belichicks history that says he would let anything get in the way of winning.
Are you joking? Wes Welker? Richard Seymour? Chandler Jones? You get on BB's bad list and you are benched, gone, whatever. It's just that here BB didn't have time to dump your sorry ass in his usual fashion, so he used the Super Bowl and cost his team a win (he also cost his team a win in the other "benching" games. It's just that they weren't the Super Bowl so they don't stick out as much). If you think that part of the BB "way" isn't making players who don't fall exactly into line "pay" in some fashion, you're right, we got nothing to talk about.
 
You know, I was feeling angry about this as well. I personally still watch the 1985 AFCGC. I watch the 2001, 2003 and 2014 SB all the time. This was a 500 yard passing performance from Brady that I should be joyfully watching over and over and over. But I can't.

I know this is stupid and selfish but it still hurts. Not sure why, but it hurts.

And another stupid thing is watching the Tom versus Time has made me feel really bad for Tom Brady. He held up his end. He should be a guy with 6 SB rings and 5 SB MVP awards. I can't believe I feel sad for a guy who gets to go to bed with Gisele B....

May I ask you a question? Why do you care how many yards Brady threw for? So, you care more about the yards, then him seeing a pocket break down and him not tuck it and take the sack?

Why?
 
Are you joking? Wes Welker? Richard Seymour? Chandler Jones? You get on BB's bad list and you are benched, gone, whatever. It's just that here BB didn't have time to dump your sorry ass in his usual fashion, so he used the Super Bowl and cost his team a win (he also cost his team a win in the other "benching" games. It's just that they weren't the Super Bowl so they don't stick out as much). If you think that part of the BB "way" isn't making players who don't fall exactly into line "pay" in some fashion, you're right, we got nothing to talk about.

Did those guys clear out a locker before playing in those games? Did they mentally check out?

Did they bad mouth coaches in front of the whole team on SB week?

No, no and no.

You lost. Get over it. Binky Butler checked out and quit on his team.
 
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