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Julian Edelman bash thread

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PP2, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. PP2

    PP2 Rookie

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    Just wanted to set this thread up in advance for tomorrow. Edelman is by far the runaway leader in receptions and yards, so he is most likely going to get Revis assigned to him in man coverage, and may even be doubled at times especially in the red zone, so I anticipate him being shut down pretty well.

    I am sure this will not prevent the naysayers from howling for his head, his dismissal from the team, and how he is the worst receiver in the history of organized football; so I wanted to set this thread up so we can get all of them in here, lock the door on them and shuffle this thread off to the PS post-game. That is, if the mods agree with this plan...
  2. SunsOutGunsOut

    SunsOutGunsOut Rookie

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    I like the OP's style ... :)
  3. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tampa is playing mostly zone, so there will be no Revis assignment or doubling, but even in man, who is going to focus on a guy catch screens and 4 yard slants.
    Stats are a wonderful thing but when you catch a lot of passes in an area of the field the defense doesn't put a ton of effort into preventing receptions (because you can't cover every pass and route tightly, without risking getting burned) you don't change your defense to take it way.
    I an sure the Bucs would be very happy to have Brady throw 18 times to Edelman and get 70 yards out of it. They won't be sacrificing something else to take that away.
  4. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    Still can't believe they didn't cut him for Quentin Simms or Bam Childress. Edelman only plays big when it counts like in the playoffs, meanwhile he can't do anything in the preseason.
  5. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure what point you are trying to make. I will point out in the last 3 years the Patriots have played in 6 playoff games and Edelman has totally 3 catches for 31 yard and missed 2 games.
    I'm not bashing Edelman, but he is what he is.
  6. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I seem to remember him playing CB against Anquan Boldin in one of those games. . . .
  7. PP2

    PP2 Rookie

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    I thought about that too. I know Tampa tends to play zone, but there are a few indications that Schiano is going to switch things up for this game. One, he is feeling the heat right now- two, some players, especially Revis have been unhappy with the defensive schemes he's been playing, and three- I think he would get up especially for BB in the same way Pittsburgh really changed things up the last time we played them.

    I think Schiano will gamble that Brady isn't quite connecting with his deep threats just yet and shut down his primary target.
  8. fumbrunner

    fumbrunner Rookie

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    if last week's game is any indication, Revis will be on one of the outside receivers in man coverage. He was on Stills all game despite better targets for Brees.
  9. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Bucs defense has allowed 34 points in 2 games, including 16 to the Saints.
    Brees completed 56% of his passes and had a QB rating of 67.
    I cannot fathom an NFL HC changing his scheme that is working because a player likes a different coverage better.
    Again, why would you try to take away a receiver that Tom Brady targetted 18 times for 73 yards? That is incredibly successful defense. Why open up something else to take away something that will never beat you.
    Tom Brady averages about 25 passes completed for 310 yards a game in about 38 attempts (2011-2012-2013). What opponent would not want him to throw half of them on routes that will get him 73 yards?
  10. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And very well, I might add.
  11. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Jesus, Andy, you're acting like short throws never turn into something bigger. Like the plan is for Edelman to catch it four yards downfield and fall down. Yeah, there were a bunch of short gains last week. The week before he averaged over 11 yards per catch and had two TDs.

    Just admit that Edelman will never be good enough for you and move on.
  12. PP2

    PP2 Rookie

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    Then you missed the Pittsburgh game last year where they threw out their traditional defensive scheme and went man to man, just for the Pats game.

    You are looking strictly at numbers. I am looking at how often Edelman moved the chains. 78 yards is still 78 yards.

    You always scheme to take away the QB's primary target. That is what BB does. He always takes away what he feels is the primary offensive weapon.
  13. Gronkandez

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    Good for a WR I suppose but he got smoked on that final drive on several occasions.

    As for this week, I'm predicting 15 catches for 54 yards. :cool: seriously though, he is the equivalent of a utility guy in baseball. A good role player...and a very good punt returner.
  14. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not at all the same thing. And btw we didn't play Pittsburgh last year.

    No I am looking at the plays, and the ineffectiveness of the offense.
    18 targets to get 78 yards is a failure. Which is why the offense largely failed that day.
    I put little value in a receiver who can only get open on routes at distances the defense gladly allows.
    He didn't move the chains, we had 9 first downs all day.

    That is not what we are talking about. Edelman is not the primary weapon. No defense is scared of 18 targets for 78 yards. If defenses thought that was acceptable to the Patriots they would engourage them to do it. They would not take it away so they can do something else, which almost certainly would be more effective. The 78 yards did little to help the offense do well.
    You have to look beyond rudimentary numbers. If a RB carries 31 times for 78 yards, are you saying he moved the chains?
    That is about the same thing. A good passing game gets 8 yards per target, Edelman got 4. A good running game gets 5 yards a carry, 31/78 is about 2.5. No team will put 8 men in the box against a runner that gets 31/78 against 7. That is the analogy here.
  15. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    These battle of the Caucasian receiver threads are growing tiresome. At the end of the day, when the donks and pats have their full complement of weapons, Wes and Jules are the 3rd or 4th options for their respective passing games. Not really worth getting all exercised about.
  16. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Did you watch the game? He was tightly covered by one man and couldn't get any more yards. The week before was a different game plan, one where he is better suited. He was not the center point of the passing game, that turned into a passing game that happily accepted the 'success' of 3 yard passes with no rac on 2nd and 10.

    I am assessing his play. If his play is better my assessment is better. I have no positive or negative personal bias toward the player. I root for the laundry. Thats probably why a lot of fans who fall in love with the try hard guys and want to induct them into the Hall of Fame every time they make a good play often disagree with my assessment. I don't grade on a curve, especially not a yeah for the mediocre dog curve.
    When Edelman deserves praise, I give it (for example his punt returns, and running screen passes and reverses) to him, but I'm not going to sing the praises of the focal point of the worst pass offense game this team has had i n years just because he's a try hard guy who caught a bunch of passes that didn't help much.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Would it surprise you to know that only 5 of Edelmans 13 catches were on series of downs that ended in a first down?
    In other words 8 of his 13 catches resulted in a punt.
    Of the 5, he had:
    7 on 1st and 10
    8 on 2nd and 7
    1 on 1st and 10
    10 on 3rd and 9
    6 on 1st and 10

    His other 8 catches totalling 41 yards did nothing to move the chains as all were part of a series ending in a punt.
  18. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Yeah, you're so unbiased that you ignore Game 1 and focus on Game 2, where he was literally the only reliable weapon on the field, and made a lot of tough catches but for short yardage.

    The use of a term like "mediocre dog" certainly shows no bias, either.

    In your eyes, he can't carry an offense, so he sucks.
  19. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    This is such a ridiculous statement. The more accurate way to put it would be to say that eight of his catches came on drives that resulted in a punt. You know, because there are additional downs and 10 other guys on offense.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is there some reason we should be glorifying a player who's 13 catch night was part of a 13 point offensive explosion? What did he do that was so awesome that it deserved a preemptive strike thread?
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Umm, the discussion was about whether the Bucs would double him and put Revis on him as the primary weapon. Why would game 1 be part of that discussion when Amendola was the primary weapon?

    Umm dog, as in underdog.:rolleyes:

    Please show me where I said he sucks.
  22. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What is your point? You like your semantics better than mine?
    Does saying it your way change what happened?
  23. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Yeah, because "mediocre dog" and "underdog" are often interchangeable. Roll eyes.

    And you said you place little value on a receiver that gets the catches he gets. Pardon me for boiling it down.

    I can't wait until Gronk gets back and Edelman has a really good game so you can say he only played well because Gronk was there, in your own thoroughly unbiased analysis.
  24. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    What happened? No. But it's a great illustration of how you'll cherry pick and play word games. You went out of your way to say x = y, when it's a little more complicated than that. I'm not surprised that you won't recognize that it's not semantics.

    I'm going to go eat. You keep on with your completely unbiased self.
  25. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Context is a wonderful thing.

    I place little value in the catches he made in that game yes. Do you put great value in them?
    Again, how does that mean i said he sucked?

    I will assess how he plays honestly as I always do. If he does what he did against the Jets I will be underwhelmed, if plays like he did vs the Bills, I will praise his play, and the way he was used.
  26. PP2

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    I am well known for never checking my facts. It however still remains that the last time we played Pittsburgh, they changed their entire scheme just because of us.


    It still doesn't change the philosophy that what you basically want to do is shut down the QB's best option, and Edelman clearly has been the go to guy.

    This has nothing to do with how good or how bad he is. In my opinion Edelman is not an elite receiver, but he does get by. The point here is that for many good reasons (and absences) he is now the go-to guy and because he is not elite, he will most likely get shut down tomorrow.
  27. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My statement was perfectly correct, and no one without a bias would find a rhetorical issue with it.
    The discussion was in response to 'he moved the chains' to which I pointed out that was not correct, at least on 8 of his catches. Like it or not, he could have dropped those 8 passes, and had a 5 catch for 32 yard game and the overall results would not have been different.
    While you see this as a slight to Edelman, it is actually an exercise in assessing the value of his production which is substantially less than it is being made out to be.
  28. PP2

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    Hit reset on your sarcasm meter.

    The point is not whether he's elite or not, it's that he's been thrust into the role of being the go-to guy because so many of our other options are out. My feeling is that he will get shut down tomorrow, and as a result will get hung, quartered, and drawn on this board even though he was never intended to be used as a no. 1 receiver, from day one.
  29. Triumph

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    Thompkins dropped a TD in the endzone and Hobson ran the wrong way on another endzone pass.

    Caught the football?
  30. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I got the point of your O.P., no reset needed. What I don't get is the idea of making it a preemptive thread. You didn't avoid Edelman getting called out tomorrow. By trying to create a "discredit the messengers in advance" thread, you essentially just started a 'bash Edelman' thread even before the game began.

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