Eagles: Stallworth offer unlikely

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Something isn't right about this Stallworth thing.

I don't get why Philadelphia is showing such little interest in resigning given the fact that when he was healthy he was their best WR.

I think something is going on that we don't know.

I believe his agent is Drew Rosenhaus, and I've heard he is demanding a ridiculous amount of money.

I've also heard something about failed drug tests.

That could very well be a possibility. If he is asking for a ridiculous amount of money then I would say.....NEXT!

 

[ArmyPatsFan]

This is coming off a link at the eagle forums (scout.com)....

"Stallworth and his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, want the bidding for the fleet wideout to begin at six years and $40 million, with an $18 million signing bonus"

http://www.nj.com/columns/times/eckel/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/117237991092920.xml&coll=5

 

[unoriginal]

And Caldwell being our leading WR got us where against Indy? Look, I know the guy had a pretty good year statistically, and did come up with some big catches here and there, but when it came down to it he proved himself unable to take the pressure of a big game. Reche just doesn't have "it", IMO, and I'd much rather he was our 3rd or 4th receiver, if even on the team at all.

This is a specious argument, because Stallworth's team did no better, nor did Stallworth himself best Caldwell's playoff performance.

Your expectations are also unreasonable. By your criteria the only way a wide receiver could have "it" is if we had won the Super Bowl... otherwise, he didn't have "it" when "it came down to it." Consequently I can think of only three receivers that clearly had "it" more than Caldwell this year and their names were Harrison, Wayne, and Clark. Caldwell made a big play in a very tight spot against San Diego. I don't expect either Caldwell or Stallworth to help win every game like that.

What you just describes is the West Coast offense. Westbrook isnt just a RB, like you say he is a WR as well. Stallworth played in the same style in NO, but they has a hard nose runner in Duece. I am not convinced that there were those teams #1 either. That is quite a leap. Honestly, the Pats didn't have a #1 this year. Everyone cycled through. It is tough to make the comparison.

Please rewrite this. I can't figure out exactly what you're arguing here. Caldwell lead our team in catches and in yards, and was consistently in the starting lineup while the other skill positions saw multiple starters, excepting quarterback. Clearly he was the number one wide receiver, and I would argue the number one receiver overall in our spread scheme, Watson being #1A or #2.

Stallworth was behind Brown in yards and Westbrook in catches. Reid runs a Walshian offense that emphasizes the running back in the passing game short, but unlike Walsh the rest of the scheme is very vertical, and it utilizes down-the-field types like Stallworth, Lewis, and Baskett. Consequently their offense is less a short spread offense with multiple pre-snap primaries like Walsh's and more a post-snap checkdown offense, with Stallworth and Brown being the primary reads downfield. I think Stallworth was their clear #1 when healthy, which explains why he was targeted so much despite having a success rate of less than 50%. Since they fill similar roles in their offenses you can compare their stats, which help bear out my interpretation of their roles.

 

[salty]

This is a specious argument, because Stallworth's team did no better, nor did Stallworth himself best Caldwell's playoff performance.

Your expectations are also unreasonable. By your criteria the only way a wide receiver could have "it" is if we had won the Super Bowl... otherwise, he didn't have "it" when "it came down to it." Consequently I can think of only three receivers that clearly had "it" more than Caldwell this year and their names were Harrison, Wayne, and Clark. Caldwell made a big play in a very tight spot against San Diego. I don't expect either Caldwell or Stallworth to help win every game like that.

I see we've got a literalist on our hands here. Allow me to clarify my remarks, then.

My belief is that Reche Caldwell is neither physically nor mentally tough enough to be relied upon as a significant contributor in this offense. Throughout the entire season I saw him dive to the ground or race out of bounds rather than fight it out for a few extra yards. I never once saw him go over the middle for a tough catch. More often than not, it seemed as though the guy looked lost or just plain scared out there. Yes, he did have some good catches and his season was a statistical success. But my view is that he cannot be relied upon to make, or even attempt to make, tough hard-nosed plays when its necessary, and therefore is essentially worthless in anything but a limited role.

Now, this thread is obstensibly about Stalworth, so let me say that Stalworth does have some injury and consistency problems that do not permit me to say that he is significantly tougher or more reliable than Caldwell. However, he does provide something Caldwell most certainly does not, and that is a deep threat in the down-field passing game. So if I were to pick between which of those two I'd rather have in the lineup, it is Stalworth hands down, because he would provide a different dynamic to the offense. However, Stalworth is no better than my third choice among possible free agent acquisitions at WR (he follows Bennett and Curtis). The main point, however, is that I do not think the Patriots can enter next season with Reche Caldwell in the starting lineup. He must be replaced.

 

[unoriginal]

I'll keep this brief. I don't recall any player in the league, let alone this team, getting paved like Caldwell did by Kaesviharn against Cincinnati.

Caldwell caught a higher percentage of balls for more yards per catch and attempt than Troy Brown, who I imagine is your standard on this team for toughness at that position.

Who is going to replace Caldwell? Of the receivers you mention only Bennett has trucked people.

 

[unoriginal]

Here's the drop stats for Caldwell, several of salty's favorites, and a few tough receivers thrown in:

Player		Tar 	Drop %Caught %1st Down
Bennett		98 	5 	46.9 	36.7
Brown		75 	2 	57.3 	37.3
Caldwell	102 	1 	59.8 	40.2
Coles		151 	3 	60.3 	34.4
Curtis		57 	2 	70.2 	47.4
Stallworth	78 	4 	48.7 	38.5
Rod Smith	94 	2 	55.3 	35.1
Welker		100 	4 	67.0 	33.0

Caldwell can't be counted on to make the catch.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Here's the drop stats for Caldwell, several of salty's favorites, and a few tough receivers thrown in:

Player		Tar 	Drop %Caught %1st Down
Bennett		98 	5 	46.9 	36.7
Brown		75 	2 	57.3 	37.3
Caldwell	102 	1 	59.8 	40.2
Coles		151 	3 	60.3 	34.4
Curtis		57 	2 	70.2 	47.4
Stallworth	78 	4 	48.7 	38.5
Rod Smith	94 	2 	55.3 	35.1
Welker		100 	4 	67.0 	33.0

Caldwell can't be counted on to make the catch.

I'm playing devil's advocate here to a degree, but I'd add "when it counts" to your sarcastic line about Caldwell not making the catch.

That's a nice lineup of statistics though.

Would you be interested in seeing statistics about kickers? I can show you how Mike Vanderjagt is/was the most accurate active kicker.

I'm trying to recall exactly how that worked out for Indianapolis, and whether or not they felt that such statistics failed to "tell the whole story" and spend some money to upgrade that position.

So I wouldn't bank too much on statistics if I were you. The eyeball test says that Caldwell is not the deep threat we need, nor really a #1 WR.

Unless you really believe that Vanderjagt is the best kicker "when it counts" I think we can all agree we need upgrades at WR.

In the finaly analysis, "when it counts" is really "when it counts".

 

[JoeSixPat]

Caldwell caught a higher percentage of balls for more yards per catch and attempt than Troy Brown, who I imagine is your standard on this team for toughness at that position.

I don't think you really want to assume that Troy Brown, a third down receiver making tough catches for short to mid-yardage, approaching the end of his career, really should "set the standard" for WRs on this team.

I think most agree, even as we hope Troy comes back, that we can do better than Troy at WR and better than Caldwell at WR as well.

Although Troy did have a few seasons where, because of a lack of other WR options, served in the role of a #1 WR - he was still a third down WR playing the role of #1 WR.

He was never truly a #1 WR, nor was he ever offered or paid #1 WR money.

So just because someone catches a lot of passes in a season, that doesn't make them a #1 WR.

The same goes for Caldwell. There are plenty of folks who assert, because we had no one else last year and Caldwell caught 60 passes, then we're all set at WR. That's such a fallacy that it almost doesn't even need a response yet some actually think Caldwell is a #1 WR.

 

[salty]

Caldwell can't be counted on to make the catch.

Not in the AFCCG, anyway. When the sh*t hit the fan in that game, Caldwell responded by dropping not one, but two touchdown passes. Real warrior we got there.

And he did get nailed by Kaesviharn, but that hit only made him even more timid. As a person, I can't blame him too much, but as a football player, he's got to shake it off.

 

[mcsully]

Some great posts here.. And see people are making valid points on both sides on the debate about signing Stallworth..


But pushing this debate aside, can we all agree that the pats should sign/trade for another veteran receiver to add to the mix. And this vet be a legit #1 or #2..

My belief, not looking up stats because I'm to tired right now , is the pats really couldn't stretch the field on a consistant basis..
I really don't want us to use another top pick on another WR.. My gut tells me they will go defense heavy..

I say lets get a vet receiver (we have the money).. Lets just figure out who it is..

 

[salty]

Some great posts here.. And see people are making valid points on both sides on the debate about signing Stallworth..


But pushing this debate aside, can we all agree that the pats should sign/trade for another veteran receiver to add to the mix. And this vet be a legit #1 or #2..

My belief, not looking up stats because I'm to tired right now , is the pats really couldn't stretch the field on a consistant basis..
I really don't want us to use another top pick on another WR.. My gut tells me they will go defense heavy..

I say lets get a vet receiver (we have the money).. Lets just figure out who it is..

I agree with that entirely. The Patriots need to add a legitimate #1 or #2 guy next year, and it'll have to come through free agency or a trade, The free agent WRs I like are:

1. Drew Bennett: Averages 14.6 yards per catch (deep threat), is 6'5", probably would have better #s if he hadn't been stuck in Tennesse's offense

2. Kevin Curtis: Great route runner, smart player, extremely reliable.

3. Donte Stallworth: Definite deep threat, but concerns regarding consistency and injuries. Also, will probably be the most expensive.

Potential sleeper: Justin Gage: Has not produced much in 4 seasons for the Bears (best year: 31 catches for less than 500 yds). However, he is 6'4", so if Belioli think he has any potential, he could be worth a shot.

After that there is not much that meets the eye. Patrick Crayton (Dallas) or DJ Hackett (Seattle) would be nice, but they are restricted free agents likely to receive high tenders (so the Pats would have to give up picks to get them).

 

[spacecrime]

Your joke detector needs new batteries.

A joke is more than saying something stupid. Just as sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, sometimes saying something stupid is just saying something stupid.

I think this may be one of those cases.

Ha ha.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I agree with that entirely. The Patriots need to add a legitimate #1 or #2 guy next year, and it'll have to come through free agency or a trade, The free agent WRs I like are:

1. Drew Bennett: Averages 14.6 yards per catch (deep threat), is 6'5", probably would have better #s if he hadn't been stuck in Tennesse's offense

2. Kevin Curtis: Great route runner, smart player, extremely reliable.

3. Donte Stallworth: Definite deep threat, but concerns regarding consistency and injuries. Also, will probably be the most expensive.

Potential sleeper: Justin Gage: Has not produced much in 4 seasons for the Bears (best year: 31 catches for less than 500 yds). However, he is 6'4", so if Belioli think he has any potential, he could be worth a shot.

After that there is not much that meets the eye. Patrick Crayton (Dallas) or DJ Hackett (Seattle) would be nice, but they are restricted free agents likely to receive high tenders (so the Pats would have to give up picks to get them).

We have two needs at WR - depth and a deep threat. If one person can serve both roles I'm all for them, but if forced to choose I'll go with deep threat first.

Bennet would be great - with so much cap space I have to think the Titans will re-sign him but who knows. His yards per catch career average is slightly deflated by injury years I think too, as under 15 yards per catch seems a bit light for a true deep threat but he indeed can go deep - and having a 6 foot 5 target for Brady would be tremendous.

I think Hackett might be on the trading block as well.

 

[unoriginal]

I don't think you really want to assume that Troy Brown, a third down receiver making tough catches for short to mid-yardage, approaching the end of his career, really should "set the standard" for WRs on this team.

Salty did not provide a standard for "toughness," so I picked Troy Brown. If you can find a tougher receiver than "a third down receiver making tough catches," or Coles/Rod Smith/Wes Welker, be my guest. If he's on this team, that would be even better. Kelvin Kight threw some nice blocks on kickoff. Chad Jackson got hit at the eight once and army-crawled into the end zone. But I think Brown is tougher, physically and mentally. I think Caldwell's lack of drops and high 1st down % indicate he is also reliable. But salty says...

Not in the AFCCG, anyway. When the sh*t hit the fan in that game, Caldwell responded by dropping not one, but two touchdown passes. Real warrior we got there.

And he did get nailed by Kaesviharn, but that hit only made him even more timid. As a person, I can't blame him too much, but as a football player, he's got to shake it off.

David Givens was once thought of as a tough wide receiver. But not in Denver last year, anyway. When the sh*t hit the fan David Givens responded by dropping not one, but two crucial first down passes. Real warrior we had there.

Troy Brown was once thought of as a clutch wide receiver. But not in Indy this year, anyway. When the sh*t hit the fan and we needed to convert a 3rd and 2 Brown ran an in when he should have run an out, and then couldn't take the pass away from little Bob Sanders. Real warrior we got there. He should hang 'em up.

Tom Brady was once thought of as a gutsy, playoff-proof quarterback. Not in the last two playoffs, anyway. When the sh*t hit the fan in Denver and in Indy, Brady fumbled and threw interceptions at crucial points in the game. He developed (in the words of one infamous poster) Champ Bailey Syndrome. Someone needs to take his girlfriends away and make him concentrate on football. Real leader we got there.

This could go on. You can find this kind of nonsense for every football player that ever played the game, whether great or not. Jim Marshall once ran a fumble in for a safety! Some player he was. Caldwell's stats clearly indicate that for the balance of the year he was Mr. Reliable. He further had two good playoff games against New York and against San Diego. And despite those two heartbreaking drops against Indy he still managed to come in second in yards receiving and catches, and accounted for the third most yards from scrimmage.

Nor was Caldwell the only person to give a touchdown away. Maroney, if you recall, fumbled the ball at the two. He did nothing running the ball, and then he went out with injuries. Yet I'm optimistic that his second year in the offense will be a good one! He was too good over the course of the year to write off next season based on a small sample of misfortunes from one game.

I don't even know what to make of your ridiculous "shake it off" comment. If Caldwell drops a pass two years from now, will it still be due to the Kevin Kaesviharn effect?

Would you be interested in seeing statistics about kickers? I can show you how Mike Vanderjagt is/was the most accurate active kicker.
(...)
Unless you really believe that Vanderjagt is the best kicker "when it counts" I think we can all agree we need upgrades at WR.

Vanderjagt, unlike Caldwell, has a clear history of discipline and mental problems. He earned the name "liquored up idiot kicker" while successful, not while drinking alone at Dallas-area bars this December. Caldwell has never been anything other than a model citizen, and unlike Vanderjagt, has made as many key plays as not in his career.

What some of you don't seem to fully understand is that the season ends in failure for 31 out of the 32 teams in this league, and if you would widen your perspectives a little bit you'd see liquored up idiot fans in 30 cities trace all their woes to one or two memorable catastrophes like Caldwell dropping the hitch, Romo dropping the snap, McCree dropping the interception. As if that were all there were to the game! "When it counts!" In the first quarter can you imagine Tom Brady tossing a pick and then shrugging it off like "Well, its early. It doesn't really count yet"?

Romo botches a snap with an obvious slick kicking ball, then makes an excellent and very athletic play by picking the ball up and sprinting around the left end. Martin Gramatica is too busy being a soccer player to block Babinenaux flying past him for the tackle, but all the idiots remember is Romo missing a snap, not Terry Glenn throwing the ball backwards into his end zone from the five, or all the other important plays that happened in that game - some of which Romo looked very good on! - that even I can't remember because I wasn't shown highlights of it 50 times, like the whole game was contained like a micro-universe within it.

I think most agree, even as we hope Troy comes back, that we can do better than Troy at WR and better than Caldwell at WR as well.

Although Troy did have a few seasons where, because of a lack of other WR options, served in the role of a #1 WR - he was still a third down WR playing the role of #1 WR.

He was never truly a #1 WR, nor was he ever offered or paid #1 WR money.

So just because someone catches a lot of passes in a season, that doesn't make them a #1 WR.

Sure does if the defense considers you to be. And by the end of the season defenses were rolling Caldwell's way, leaving Gaffney single-covered by the likes of Hank Poteat on the opposite side. And the Patriots exploited that all day long, whereas say Dallas, against Seattle, was not consistently able to crack the tough nut posed by the indefatigable (I am being sarcastic) Pete Hunter in cushion coverage on either Terrell Owens or Terry Glenn. Hey, just cause you pay receivers #1 money, and people call them a #1, doesn't make them perform like a #1.

I agree with that entirely. The Patriots need to add a legitimate #1 or #2 guy next year, and it'll have to come through free agency or a trade, The free agent WRs I like are:

1. Drew Bennett: Averages 14.6 yards per catch (deep threat), is 6'5", probably would have better #s if he hadn't been stuck in Tennesse's offense

2. Kevin Curtis: Great route runner, smart player, extremely reliable.

3. Donté Stallworth: Definite deep threat, but concerns regarding consistency and injuries. Also, will probably be the most expensive.

Potential sleeper: Justin Gage: Has not produced much in 4 seasons for the Bears (best year: 31 catches for less than 500 yds). However, he is 6'4", so if Belioli think he has any potential, he could be worth a shot.

After that there is not much that meets the eye. Patrick Crayton (Dallas) or DJ Hackett (Seattle) would be nice, but they are restricted free agents likely to receive high tenders (so the Pats would have to give up picks to get them).

1. Drew Bennett is not a deep threat. He does not have the quickness to get into his deep routes in the amount of time we (or most other teams) allot for passing plays to develop. He can gather momentum just fine, but I'd wager his 20 yard splits are behind that of Caldwell and Gaffney, not to mention Jackson. Go to a Titans board. Ask them if Bennett can stretch the field. They'll say something like, no but Kevin Curtis can.

2. Curtis is a very fine player, but interestingly enough not better than a wizened Issac Bruce. Someone else will probably overpay him. Rumors have him going to Detroit cause he loves Mike Martz, and while this doesn't make sense because Detroit already has Roy Williams and Mike Furrey locked into contracts, it does make sense because Mike Martz and Matt Millen can not say no to a good wide receiver. As everybody's favorite free agent sleeper he'll make out like a bandit.

3. Fine. Keep harping on Stallworth. He's different, but not better than Caldwell. Might not even be as good as Gaffney for us. And like you said he'll make far far more money than either of those two, and he cost the Eagles Mark Simoneau and a 4th besides. They had to make due with Dhani Jones and a rookie at the outside slots this year. I like the deal we got on Reche and Jabar.

So where is this imaginary "legitimate #1 or #2 guy" that (quoting JoeSix) "can do better" than Caldwell? You identified the top three FA receivers, and I'd say Kevin Curtis alone might, MIGHT end up being a superior signing, and he was a backup last year. With so few good WRs out there I'm sure every other NFL scouting department knows this as well. I'd put the chances of us signing him at 10%. Not impossible, but improbable. Even if we pony up the dough, some of these guys will have reasons to go elsewhere, just like Mason had. And this team bats about .500 on their WR acquistions anyways. A bird in the hand...

Then you have Justin Gage, who is not a clear #1 or #2 because its not clear whether or not he'll be a receiver in this league in the future. And that's the kind of guy we'll be signing. Some guy that will make each and everybody go "who? how does this help us?" in march, and then goes out and has a "very nice statistical season" but who just doesn't have "it," unless of course we win the Super Bowl. Then we assume everyone's got a little bit of the magic.

Pushing this debate aside, can we all agree that the pats should sign/trade for another veteran receiver to add to the mix. And this vet be a legit #1 or #2..

I say lets get a vet receiver (we have the money).. Lets just figure out who it is..

You guys let me know when you do.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Then you have Justin Gage, who is not a clear #1 or #2 because its not clear whether or not he'll be a receiver in this league in the future. And that's the kind of guy we'll be signing. Some guy that will make each and everybody go "who? how does this help us?" in march, and then goes out and has a "very nice statistical season" but who just doesn't have "it," unless of course we win the Super Bowl. Then we assume everyone's got a little bit of the magic.

Actually i liked Gage coming out of college a ton and thought he got the shaft in Chicago playing with crap at QB and in an anemic passing game.

Might be a surprise.

Good call.

 

[unoriginal]

Your joke detector needs new batteries.

A joke is more than saying something stupid. Just as sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, sometimes saying something stupid is just saying something stupid.

I think this may be one of those cases.

Ha ha.

My one-liner was better than your one-liner.

 

[salty]

I don't even know what to make of your ridiculous "shake it off" comment. If Caldwell drops a pass two years from now, will it still be due to the Kevin Kaesviharn effect?

I wasn't referring to dropped passes when I mentioned the Kaesviharn hit, I was referring to the fact that Caldwell either drops to the ground or dashes out of bounds immediately after catching the ball. He won't fight it out for the tough yards because he isn't tough enough to do so. My point was that a tough player would've shook off the Kaesviharn hit and continued to play tough, whereas Reche was hardly tough before the hit and appeared only even more afraid after it. Not the kind of guy I want in the clutch.

1. Drew Bennett is not a deep threat. He does not have the quickness to get into his deep routes in the amount of time we (or most other teams) allot for passing plays to develop. He can gather momentum just fine, but I'd wager his 20 yard splits are behind that of Caldwell and Gaffney, not to mention Jackson. Go to a Titans board. Ask them if Bennett can stretch the field. They'll say something like, no but Kevin Curtis can.

2. Curtis is a very fine player, but interestingly enough not better than a wizened Issac Bruce. Someone else will probably overpay him. Rumors have him going to Detroit cause he loves Mike Martz, and while this doesn't make sense because Detroit already has Roy Williams and Mike Furrey locked into contracts, it does make sense because Mike Martz and Matt Millen can not say no to a good wide receiver. As everybody's favorite free agent sleeper he'll make out like a bandit.

3. Fine. Keep harping on Stallworth. He's different, but not better than Caldwell. Might not even be as good as Gaffney for us. And like you said he'll make far far more money than either of those two, and he cost the Eagles Mark Simoneau and a 4th besides. They had to make due with Dhani Jones and a rookie at the outside slots this year. I like the deal we got on Reche and Jabar.

Drew Bennett averaged 16 yards per catch this year. Caldwell averaged 12.5 and Gaffney averaged 12.9. So unless you figure that the differences are entirely attributable to the respective offensive systems they were in, Bennett is clearly more of a deep threat than what we've currently got. I'm not saying he's a burner, but he can get open down the field, and oh yeah, he's 6'5".

Kevin Curtis would be a great addition, we seem to at least agree on that. I don't think you are giving him enough credit though in assuming he will go to Detroit over New England. If the Patriots were to be competitive for his services, I think he might see the wisdom in going to a quality club with a fantastic quarterback rather than a crap team with Jon Kitna at the helm, no matter how much he loves Mike Martz.

Stallworth provides a deep threat, which we sorely need. Like I said, I'd rather have Bennett or Curtis, but Stallworth would still be an upgrade at the position and he'd get Reche Caldwell the hell out of the lineup. My main concern is his durability, but given that he would finally give this offense a consistent down-field threat, he'd be well worth the risk, IMO.

But you seem to be of the mind that the Pats should do nothing and let teams stack the line against them every down again next year because they have absolutely no deep threat or playmaking threat at WR. You are entitled to that opinion, but I, for one, hope that the front office isn't buying in to the plan.

 

[The 12th Man]

It will be interesting to see if the Pats even try to pursue Stallworth. The only thing that might close the door there is the fact that lots of teams are ready to overpay the guy, obviously BB won't do that. They might offer him a "fair" deal, but I think Donte is more about money then winning. Same goes for A.Thomas. Personally, I would love to see Stallworth in a Patriot uniform, but right now it seems very unlikely. I would also love to see Drew Bennett for that matter, which is a little more realistic, although not by much.