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Does Faith Matter?

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by State, Jun 21, 2009.

  1. State

    State Rookie

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    Rabbi David Wolpe out in LA has written a book that it does. Does Faith Matter?

    He's interviewed in a rollickingly good interview by Dennis Prager: Radio Show

    Key insight: "Atheism, wrote the Preacher Harry Emerson Fosdick, is the theoretical formulation of a discouraged life. That is too often true. God must not exist because things have not gone as I expected them to go."

    Who hasn't had a tough life?
  2. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Isn't this all backwards? I thought this is why people clinged to religion (aka "born again") rather than moved away from it.
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is why you're not a rabbi Godef ;)

    The discouraged other, evidently, is in the eye of the beholder.
  4. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Does genocide matter? Does Racism matter? Does stupidity matter?

    Umm yes, what does that mean then? Rephrase the question if you aren't just looking for false affirmation through leading questions....
  5. PatsFanInVa

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    It's worth noting that atheism toward the natural world -- interpreting "atheism" to mean functional disbelief in supernatural forces -- is the only means of honest inquiry.

    That is to say, if I mean to ask where something came from, I must rule out that the answer is "God did it!" (or the same answer, substituting some other supernatural being.) Otherwise the journey of discovery would be a brief one indeed.

    So one could easily phrase any theistic hypothesis -- in the scientific world -- as a crisis of confidence in our own curiosity and combined powers of reason.

    This is why I am a firm believer in the border of the objective and the subjective as enormously important in one's own religious development. One cannot construct a house of cards, if one is intellectually honest, ceding whatever is currently known to science, and whatever is not known to God, the so often mentioned "God of the gaps."

    As to the inner life -- the very existence of which I do not find sufficient explanation for anywhere -- that is another story. No explanation of the existence of the subjective has yet been drawn from the examination of the objective that remotely satisfies my curiosity yet.

    But its not so much the inability of the objective to explain the origin of the subjective that is my point; rather, it is the greatly limited ability we each have of even positing the subjective to another subjective actor, never mind claiming for it a place in the objective.

    Work time.

    PFnV
  6. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    ^^^ If you shine a light through a bunch of differently shaped crystals, the light is going to be refracted and absorbed by each crystal depending on their individual composition. That doesn't change the nature or "truth" of the light itself though.

    Edit to add: Maaaaaaaaaaan.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  7. PatsFanInVa

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    And you are prepared to say that the photons, or the crystals, are aware of this, maaaaan?
  8. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I'm saying that if the crystals were self aware, then there own distorted (subjective) interpretation of the photons has no inherent merit. The photons do not change, just like whatever the universe/world/whatever information we take in subjectively doesn't change the reality of it.
  9. PatsFanInVa

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    So you're redefining reality as purely consisting on the objective reality outside yourself, and urge that others do likewise?

    This has the disadvantage of disregarding 100% of your own experiential evidence to the effect that your subjective reality does, in fact, matter. Not only does it matter, it is the only empirically unassailable fact, the one requiring no leap of faith. Cogito ergo sum and all that.

    The fact is that of course the subjective world of the billions of people on earth (and probably quite a few of the animals), matters. For any of these individuals it is the basic fact of their lives. The objective world can make those lives very short, of course. Hence the traditional lack of navel-gazing among prey animals in the presence of a predator.

    That subjective existence is, however, one's subjective reality, so there is a gaping chasm between the objective and the entirety of reality, whether or not one is of a religious bent.
  10. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    faith is only important when you need it.........

    but when you're busy behaving like a pig, its the furthest thing from your mind
  11. wistahpatsfan

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  12. Fogbuster

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    Faith matters, of course, but having an up-to-date understanding of eternal life is the first step; otherwise we have no clear idea of what to faith in. There have been many accounts of the spirit world, from people like Swedenbourg to Anthony Borgia to Carl Wickland, but they are not 100% accurate; they do give some idea yet it is lacking.

    If anyone wants the most up-to-date understanding of the eternal world, go to: The Principle of Creation
    In particular: Section 6 - The Incorporeal World and the Corporeal World
    Whose Center is Human Beings

    Also: Cheon Seong Gyeong - Sun Myung Moon - Book Five - Earthly Life And The Spirit World - Chapter Three - The Spirit World - Section 2. What Kind of Place Is the Spirit World?

    Many more: Tparents Org Search

    In the fullness of time God always sends someone to reveal new truth for a new age. Today is clearly a new age for all humankind. Rev. Moon is that someone God has ordained to reveal and teach all people what we need to know. Thanks be to God and to Rev. Moon, the True Parent of humankind.

    //
  13. godef

    godef Rookie

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    "Up-to-date"? So like other aspects of religion, they keep updating their tenets in order to stay relevent?
  14. Fogbuster

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    You believe in "evolution", don't you?? Well, things do develop toward maturity and it does take time. Jesus said, "I have many things to tell you, but you are not yet ready to receive them. The day will come when however I shall speak plainly all the truth." (John 16:25, et.al.)


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  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    WOW!
    How condascending is THAT?
  16. Fogbuster

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    How??? I did not intend it be "condescending".


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  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Not you. What "John" said (If "he" even said it)
  18. Fogbuster

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    The author is quoting Jesus, and I believe it is akin to your young children asking you questions, like, "where do babies come from" or "what happens when a person dies".



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  19. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Do YOU believe that evolution is fact? I gather you don't, thus the "quotes." Yet you dare draw an analogy to it? There's no "maturity" in evolution, evolution just keeps happening. It does take time though.
    Hah! That's what I tell my kid all the time, "you'll understand when you grow up." That keeps him at bay a few more years.
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Oh...

    I thought John was talking to grownups...my bad. i didn't realize that the Gospel of John was intended for little children. Thanks for the clarification.
  21. Fogbuster

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    I DO believe that creation occurred over a long period of time, "long" being considered from our earthly understanding of "time". As the universe most certainly *did* go through a "maturation" process, from hot gases to cooling gases to accumulated particles to solid objects -- with liquid states in-between -- it is similar in principle to what human beings go through. When we are young our minds think accordingly, and as we age so too does our thought process mature .... or at least it *should*.


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  22. Fogbuster

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    You think all people of adult age are equally mature and responsible in their thinking??? I don't.



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  23. wistahpatsfan

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    Obviously not. You made this statement:
    "The author is quoting Jesus, and I believe it is akin to your young children asking you questions, like, "where do babies come from" or "what happens when a person dies".

    To me that means that you see the relationship between the authors of the Gospel and the people reading it..."akin to...children"
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2009
  24. Fogbuster

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    As Jesus often said, "for those who have ears they will hear". He said that people at his time did not understand what he was teaching them, and he often expressed his frustration over this fact. His crucifixion itself was done in abject misunderstanding of what he was trying to do, which was to build God's Kingdom on the earth. Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer: ".... Thy will be done, Thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heavan....." Mt 6: 9-13


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  25. IcyPatriot

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    It's all about the size of your holy book ... size matters.
  26. Fogbuster

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    Not necessarily. Jesus said all the law and the prophets could be summarized in two sentences: love God with all your heart, mind, and desire; and love your fellow man as you do yourself.

    Today I would say that the most important goal in life is to inherit the true love of God.

    We are God's children and so we should inherit His/Her love fully. God yearns for such children who are so filial.


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  27. wistahpatsfan

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    The bolded part creeps me out.

    Maybe that's why I don't "believe" in God...I refuse to worship anything that considers me to be a child.
  28. Fogbuster

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    You need to hang around some old people, wistah. I mean really old people, like those who are about to graduate from this world. You've never heard of "second childhood"?? Or "once and adult, twice a child"??

    Many who are young in years have maturity that far exceeds those years, while some who have many years under their belts are still very immature in their hearts and minds.

    It is what it is. And, yes, we all do need to grow up. All the way. God is totally trustworthy. Nothing to worry about, at all. You are truly safe in God's hands because He/She cares about you more than anyone (though ideally your parents, spouse, and children should do that representing God).

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  29. wistahpatsfan

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    Referring to your first point....That's shotgun time and I got a plan.

    Second point...no sh!t

    Third point...Tell that to a peasant in Afghanistan or a three year-old with spina-bifida.
  30. Fogbuster

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    Keep your day job. Communication skills are clearly NOT your forte.


    :D


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