Welcome to PatsFans.com

Does Faith Matter?

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by State, Jun 21, 2009.

  1. State

    State Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,515
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    #70 Jersey

    Rabbi David Wolpe out in LA has written a book that it does. Does Faith Matter?

    He's interviewed in a rollickingly good interview by Dennis Prager: Radio Show

    Key insight: "Atheism, wrote the Preacher Harry Emerson Fosdick, is the theoretical formulation of a discouraged life. That is too often true. God must not exist because things have not gone as I expected them to go."

    Who hasn't had a tough life?
  2. godef

    godef Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Isn't this all backwards? I thought this is why people clinged to religion (aka "born again") rather than moved away from it.
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    265
    Ratings:
    +461 / 7 / -9

    This is why you're not a rabbi Godef ;)

    The discouraged other, evidently, is in the eye of the beholder.
  4. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    Does genocide matter? Does Racism matter? Does stupidity matter?

    Umm yes, what does that mean then? Rephrase the question if you aren't just looking for false affirmation through leading questions....
  5. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    265
    Ratings:
    +461 / 7 / -9

    It's worth noting that atheism toward the natural world -- interpreting "atheism" to mean functional disbelief in supernatural forces -- is the only means of honest inquiry.

    That is to say, if I mean to ask where something came from, I must rule out that the answer is "God did it!" (or the same answer, substituting some other supernatural being.) Otherwise the journey of discovery would be a brief one indeed.

    So one could easily phrase any theistic hypothesis -- in the scientific world -- as a crisis of confidence in our own curiosity and combined powers of reason.

    This is why I am a firm believer in the border of the objective and the subjective as enormously important in one's own religious development. One cannot construct a house of cards, if one is intellectually honest, ceding whatever is currently known to science, and whatever is not known to God, the so often mentioned "God of the gaps."

    As to the inner life -- the very existence of which I do not find sufficient explanation for anywhere -- that is another story. No explanation of the existence of the subjective has yet been drawn from the examination of the objective that remotely satisfies my curiosity yet.

    But its not so much the inability of the objective to explain the origin of the subjective that is my point; rather, it is the greatly limited ability we each have of even positing the subjective to another subjective actor, never mind claiming for it a place in the objective.

    Work time.

    PFnV
  6. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    ^^^ If you shine a light through a bunch of differently shaped crystals, the light is going to be refracted and absorbed by each crystal depending on their individual composition. That doesn't change the nature or "truth" of the light itself though.

    Edit to add: Maaaaaaaaaaan.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    265
    Ratings:
    +461 / 7 / -9

    And you are prepared to say that the photons, or the crystals, are aware of this, maaaaan?
  8. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    I'm saying that if the crystals were self aware, then there own distorted (subjective) interpretation of the photons has no inherent merit. The photons do not change, just like whatever the universe/world/whatever information we take in subjectively doesn't change the reality of it.
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    265
    Ratings:
    +461 / 7 / -9

    So you're redefining reality as purely consisting on the objective reality outside yourself, and urge that others do likewise?

    This has the disadvantage of disregarding 100% of your own experiential evidence to the effect that your subjective reality does, in fact, matter. Not only does it matter, it is the only empirically unassailable fact, the one requiring no leap of faith. Cogito ergo sum and all that.

    The fact is that of course the subjective world of the billions of people on earth (and probably quite a few of the animals), matters. For any of these individuals it is the basic fact of their lives. The objective world can make those lives very short, of course. Hence the traditional lack of navel-gazing among prey animals in the presence of a predator.

    That subjective existence is, however, one's subjective reality, so there is a gaping chasm between the objective and the entirety of reality, whether or not one is of a religious bent.
  10. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    faith is only important when you need it.........

    but when you're busy behaving like a pig, its the furthest thing from your mind
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    The Casino Creed.....
  12. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0

    Faith matters, of course, but having an up-to-date understanding of eternal life is the first step; otherwise we have no clear idea of what to faith in. There have been many accounts of the spirit world, from people like Swedenbourg to Anthony Borgia to Carl Wickland, but they are not 100% accurate; they do give some idea yet it is lacking.

    If anyone wants the most up-to-date understanding of the eternal world, go to: The Principle of Creation
    In particular: Section 6 - The Incorporeal World and the Corporeal World
    Whose Center is Human Beings

    Also: Cheon Seong Gyeong - Sun Myung Moon - Book Five - Earthly Life And The Spirit World - Chapter Three - The Spirit World - Section 2. What Kind of Place Is the Spirit World?

    Many more: Tparents Org Search

    In the fullness of time God always sends someone to reveal new truth for a new age. Today is clearly a new age for all humankind. Rev. Moon is that someone God has ordained to reveal and teach all people what we need to know. Thanks be to God and to Rev. Moon, the True Parent of humankind.

    //
  13. godef

    godef Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    "Up-to-date"? So like other aspects of religion, they keep updating their tenets in order to stay relevent?
  14. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0


    You believe in "evolution", don't you?? Well, things do develop toward maturity and it does take time. Jesus said, "I have many things to tell you, but you are not yet ready to receive them. The day will come when however I shall speak plainly all the truth." (John 16:25, et.al.)


    //
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    WOW!
    How condascending is THAT?
  16. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0


    How??? I did not intend it be "condescending".


    //
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Not you. What "John" said (If "he" even said it)
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0


    The author is quoting Jesus, and I believe it is akin to your young children asking you questions, like, "where do babies come from" or "what happens when a person dies".



    //
  19. godef

    godef Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Do YOU believe that evolution is fact? I gather you don't, thus the "quotes." Yet you dare draw an analogy to it? There's no "maturity" in evolution, evolution just keeps happening. It does take time though.
    Hah! That's what I tell my kid all the time, "you'll understand when you grow up." That keeps him at bay a few more years.
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Oh...

    I thought John was talking to grownups...my bad. i didn't realize that the Gospel of John was intended for little children. Thanks for the clarification.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>