Dan Shonka - ourlads

[VJCPatriot]

We still don't need an ILB early. And neither Carter nor Sturdivant project to anything other than ILB in the Pats system with their size limitations. Why do people listen to talking heads who don't even understand our defensive system and BB's rather stringent size requirements for OLBs?

 

[patfanken]

We still don't need an ILB early. And neither Carter nor Sturdivant project to anything other than ILB in the Pats system with their size limitations. Why do people listen to talking heads who don't even understand our defensive system and BB's rather stringent size requirements for OLBs?

I don't know about Sturdivant, but Shonka's description of Carter led me to believe he thinks of him as more than merely an ILB.

Impact pass rushers come in all sizes. We wouldn't turn down Elvis Dummerville or James Harrison's impact and NEITHER of those guys have seen 6' I do not believe BB is so rigid that he'd pass on someone merely because he didn't meet some preconceived size/wt/speed criteria. He's seen far too many guys with great measureables fail and far too many guys without them succeed to be so pedantic

Also to Box. I got the sense that this guy watches a lot of tape. Maybe that's where he made his determination on Sturdivant, rather than his seemingly bad post season results. I don't know.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ken, I'm sure Sturdivant looked good on tape, he was considered a good prospect coming into this process, there are just recent reports, which could be bogus too, claiming he's let himself go and teams are disgusted.

Speaking of disgusting, er, discussing, Mike Sando of ESPN's NFCW Blog (and Borges plagiarism fame) did a breakdown of which teams drafted defense the most heavily in the first and second rounds from 2007-2010. Have I mentioned NE is rebuilding? Yep, 81.8% defense for NE in the past four drafts.

 

[letekro]

I don't know about Sturdivant, but Shonka's description of Carter led me to believe he thinks of him as more than merely an ILB.

Impact pass rushers come in all sizes. We wouldn't turn down Elvis Dummerville or James Harrison's impact and NEITHER of those guys have seen 6' I do not believe BB is so rigid that he'd pass on someone merely because he didn't meet some preconceived size/wt/speed criteria. He's seen far too many guys with great measureables fail and far too many guys without them succeed to be so pedantic

Also to Box. I got the sense that this guy watches a lot of tape. Maybe that's where he made his determination on Sturdivant, rather than his seemingly bad post season results. I don't know.

Bruce Carter had 3 sacks this year and 1 in 2009. There's no doubt he's a great athlete and a hell of a weakside OLB in the 4-3, but there's no reason to believe that he would be an "impact" pass-rusher. He COULD be, but wouldn't you rather have someone that at least WAS an impact pass-rusher in college?

 

[patfanken]

Bruce Carter had 3 sacks this year and 1 in 2009. There's no doubt he's a great athlete and a hell of a weakside OLB in the 4-3, but there's no reason to believe that he would be an "impact" pass-rusher. He COULD be, but wouldn't you rather have someone that at least WAS an impact pass-rusher in college?

So that means you are not a Brooks Reed fan.

 

[patchick]

So that means you are not a Brooks Reed fan.

Personally, I think Reed is significantly overrated but a pretty good prospect. As for what qualities predict NFL pass-rushing success, let's look at the past year's NFL sack leaders:

#1 was a highly productive college pass rusher in a small conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

#2 was a highly productive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had poor athletic measurables.

#3 was a totally unproductive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

#4 was a totally unproductive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

See the pattern? Nope, me neither.

 

[Sciz]

Personally, I think Reed is significantly overrated but a pretty good prospect. As for what qualities predict NFL pass-rushing success, let's look at the past year's NFL sack leaders:

#1 was a highly productive college pass rusher in a small conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

#2 was a highly productive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had poor athletic measurables.

#3 was a totally unproductive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

#4 was a totally unproductive college pass rusher in a major conference, and had spectacular athletic measurables.

See the pattern? Nope, me neither.

Unproductive college pass rushers who have NFL success are those who have great measurables and are put in attacking schemes. To succeed in the Pats' scheme, these guys need to be able to shed blocks and have multiple pass rush moves to get to the QB. Hence, I'd say there's a much better correlation between college productivity and success in the Pats' scheme compared to the NFL average.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Just got done listening to a podcast done by Dan Shonka - He's runs Ourlads and has an impeccable 39 year background in coaching and professional scouting. For what its worth, I thought it wa s VERY interesting on just some of his comments on certain players that we've been talking about.

Shonka has great 20/20 hindsight but when I used to bu the Ourlads guide I was always disappointed at poorly his mocks did against reality.

I also remember that this postman in NYC won the Giants newsweekly draft contest by correctly picking every single pick of the Giants. Incredible but of course he was cheating and back dating his entries....

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't know about Sturdivant, but Shonka's description of Carter led me to believe he thinks of him as more than merely an ILB.

Maybe in another system.

Impact pass rushers come in all sizes. We wouldn't turn down Elvis Dummerville or James Harrison's impact and NEITHER of those guys have seen 6' I do not believe BB is so rigid that he'd pass on someone merely because he didn't meet some preconceived size/wt/speed criteria. He's seen far too many guys with great measureables fail and far too many guys without them succeed to be so pedantic

No doubt they are talented players. But they play in DIFFERENT systems. What BB asks from a linebacker in a 2 gap 3-4 system is different from what those players do in their respective defenses in Denver and Pittsburgh.

Bruce Carter sounds like he might be a success in a 4-3 system as an OLB. Or perhaps in the Colts system that emphasizes smaller, speedier players on defense. But the Pats require size from their linebackers, in particular at the OLB position. We all know BB's desired measureables by now 6-4+ 260 lbs+ 4.7 or faster 40s. This is not BB being pedantic, it's him knowing what works best in his own sytem and looking for players that fit.