CBS split video of Kelvin Benjamin TD overturn NOT in sync

[1960Pats]

Didn't that happen last year? Ground Control to Major Tom

I was at this concert with my son and his family...

 

[juxtapoz15]

It is actually often not as trivial as it seems to automatically sync an event captured by two (or even more) independent sources down to the millisecond.

I have never worked with broadcast cameras and their feed system but from my experience writing p2p services and dedicated server services I can only tell you that syncing communication is not as straight forward as many imagine.

e.g. when you are sending packets over a network you need some kind of central authority that essentially tells every participant what the time is because you can not just rely on their local timestamps to sync things.

And given how long replay reviews take in the NFL I would not be surprised if they dont actually have some kind of automated system that keeps the feeds in sync but instead try to stitch those things together by hand based on some visual cues.

And to be honest it is one of those cases where you might actually pay a ****ton of money for something that will only be used 20 times a season and in each case would result in maybe shaving off a minute or so.


All that being said.. I think I wrote it in the post game thread but what Riveron & co simply need to do is push the piece of evidence they stitched together that gave a definitive shot immediately to the broadcasting partner so they can show it right after the ref announces it. This would help introduce more transparency to the centralized review process and shut up most conspiracy theories. Additionally, having to publish that one shot (or sequence) would add a bit of pressure onto themselves to only reverse things that are really obvious and not guess work.

Just curious, I’ve worked with high speed data networks for a dozen years. But I haven’t worked much with video. Couldn’t you just point everything to a NTP (network time protocol) server. That could be your authoritative source. And you could host one inside your network as an inexpensive server or you could point to an external source.

 

[Bill Lee]

All that being said.. I think I wrote it in the post game thread but what Riveron & co simply need to do is push the piece of evidence they stitched together that gave a definitive shot immediately to the broadcasting partner so they can show it right after the ref announces it. This would help introduce more transparency to the centralized review process and shut up most conspiracy theories. Additionally, having to publish that one shot (or sequence) would add a bit of pressure onto themselves to only reverse things that are really obvious and not guess work.

Agree totally. If you look at the time stamp on the tweet, it's 4:47. That's unacceptable. We should have the evidence at the same time it gets pushed to the referees. NFL needs to get better at doing this. There's lots of ways they could. For instance, find a way to drive a football simulation like Madden with all the various permutations of the catch rule and use it to train Riveron and flunkies. Ask Riveron what the call is and why, and if he answers wrong, show him what he missed. Should be able to get the response time down a lot more than the 3+ minutes we had in the NE-BUF game.

ObGeek: Precision Time Protocol (PTP) works quite well, and is finally getting support in most vendor's network stacks and silicon.

 

[XLIX]

I was just watching the video to see how many times CBS shows the best view of Kelvin Benjamin's foot not being on the ground. They showed it twice. 1st time Romo sees this view he thinks it might be overturned. 2nd time the view is shown, Romo thinks the foot might be off the ground but says the call will probably just stand as called on the field. Here's the best view for anyone that cares:



So moving on, as I'm watching the broadcast video I noticed something peculiar on the split screen of the play showing two different angles at the same time. I see pellets on the angle of the left and nothing on the right. The left screen angle does not show the ball where as the right screen angle does show the ball. So I look closely to see how I can find out if it's out of sync.

Benjamin's right knee contacting the pylon shows clear evidence that the left screen angle that is showing pellets coming up is behind the right screen angle that shows the ball.

1. Initial contact with pylon
Notice when you can 1st see contact with the pylon on the right screen, there's a gap between Benjamin's knee and the pylon on the left screen. You could argue maybe the angle is making it look like it's touching when it's not. So on to the next point...

2. Pylon flexing
Notice the flexing of the pylon on the right screen angle vs none on the left screen angle. Or go further into the video noticing the different amount of flex in the pylon from the right screen angle vs the left screen angle

3. Pylon's 1st contact with ground after being dislodged from the ground
Notice how the top of the Pylon hits the ground on the right screen angle before the left screen angle.

The split screen view is the last view shown on the broadcast and Jim Nantz is pointing how he see pellets coming up on the left screen angle that doesn't show the ball! They stop the simultaneous video based off of the right screen angle which is showing the ball. Should also note the right screen angle doesn't provide enough detail to see the pellets coming up but the best angle shown in the tweet does provide enough detail.

The video's are out of sync. When the video is paused based on when Romo believes the ball to be secured from the right angle, the left screen angle, that has an obstructed view of the ball, shows Benjamin's left foot before it starts dragging and lifting up pellets.

This is completely ****ed up! Can someone post screenshots of the 3 points i've made showing the proof of this as well as any screenshots showing other proof of this, please?

Questions I have:

Is it impossible or extremely difficult to perfectly sync two videos together?

Collingsworth(or Al Michaels?) has mentioned several times that they can piece two different videos together and use that as evidence to make a call. If this is true and the answer is yes to my first question, how many calls has the NYJFL* got wrong based off of out of sync video?

I will never trust simultaneous video again, and neither should anyone else.

Finally, after someone makes the screenshots of this, can you send them to someone in the media on twitter? CBS and NYJFL* needs to be exposed for their corruption and/or incompetence!

The ****ing damage being done to Pro football by NYJFL*, the broadcasters and the corrupt 32 just never freaking ends!

Um, did you just post that entire diatribe for a call they ultimately got right, and benefitted us?

 

[Kontradiction]

^^ I sense another dislike war coming on.

 

[chasa]

The ****ing damage being done to Pro football by NYJFL*, the broadcasters and the corrupt 32 just never freaking ends!

but they got the call right..

maybe loosen your tinfoil hat a smidge.

 

[Bill Lee]

Um, did you just post that entire diatribe for a call they ultimately got right, and benefitted us?

Personally, I'm glad that the call was right and that the call benefited us, but I think we can have a discussion about the game can be improved without being total homers.

If you actually want to participate, tell us why shouldn't the league just show us what Riveron saw at the same time, or shortly thereafter?

If you just want to be lob spitballs, that's on you.

 

[Ring 6]

Not without accompanying video, it's not.

Well of course since the video shows what he is explaining.

 

[Ring 6]

Personally, I'm glad that the call was right and that the call benefited us, but I think we can have a discussion about the game can be improved without being total homers.

If you actually want to participate, tell us why shouldn't the league just show us what Riveron saw at the same time, or shortly thereafter?

If you just want to be lob spitballs, that's on you.

They did it’s in this thread.
Are you saying it’s a horrific thing that the league doesn’t get around to doling out explanations until Wednesday?
I mean there are a bunch of other games going on so asking them to stop and hold a press conference after each review is unreasonable.

But so I’m clear what exact problem are you trying to address?

 

[XLIX]

Personally, I'm glad that the call was right and that the call benefited us, but I think we can have a discussion about the game can be improved without being total homers.

If you actually want to participate, tell us why shouldn't the league just show us what Riveron saw at the same time, or shortly thereafter?

If you just want to be lob spitballs, that's on you.

I accurately stated it was the right call. It makes no sense to talk about TV network conspiracies and league-wide “NYJFL” incompetence when they got the call right.

If you call that “lobbing spitballs” then stop being such a snowflake.

 

[Ring 6]

And David DeCastro was 4 yards downfield blocking, which clued the safeties and LBs that it was a RUN, which turned into a TD pass as the Pat defenders were rightly closing on an expected run play.

It happens, all the time, every game. Teams have to overcome Von Miller going off-sides repeatedly in Denver, or KC's defense putting their entire game plan around grabbing on every play and daring the refs to call it, or the Ravens instituting throws to create DPI, or blown sideline calls, or, or, or...

Bottom line, the play in question (which still looks like a TD to me) happened at the end of the FIRST HALF, which ended 13-13, and would have been 17-13. The Bills went up 16-13 in the third quarter, then got murdered by a Patriots team that had made all the right adjustments.

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/untitled-26.jpg

How can it still look like a TD to you when riveron made a video saying HERE is when he has control of the ball and SEE the foot is off the ground then comes down out of bounds.
It really is crystal clear unless you are saying the eye test says it’s close snuggle so give it to him.

 

[scott99]

People are up in arms because it's a Patriot's game. I'm sure there have been a decent amount of overturned TDs that nobody has complained about.

 

[luuked]

Just curious, I’ve worked with high speed data networks for a dozen years. But I haven’t worked much with video. Couldn’t you just point everything to a NTP (network time protocol) server. That could be your authoritative source. And you could host one inside your network as an inexpensive server or you could point to an external source.

I have no idea how a modern (or any, really) broadcasting system works in terms of sync'ing things. One would think that inside the broadcast truck should be some kind of authority service that sets a baseline to sync everything up given things they have running there (e.g. their virtual LoS and LoG indicators).

I also didn't want to say that it is a complex problem because as you said link them up to one authority and it can be solved. My point was that it is not as trivial as saying "use the same timepoint" because even the concept of time is kinda relative in systems like that and who knows how they are designed. I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of the stuff thats running in broadcast trucks is written in ancient, legacy languages and a lot of the new features are expensively woven into it.

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

Riveron is well on pace for getting fired after this season.

 

[Bill Lee]

Just curious, I’ve worked with high speed data networks for a dozen years. But I haven’t worked much with video. Couldn’t you just point everything to a NTP (network time protocol) server. That could be your authoritative source. And you could host one inside your network as an inexpensive server or you could point to an external source.

Network Timing Technology: NTP vs PTP says:

Why is PTP timestamping so accurate? It uses hardware timestamping instead of software, and like any other fine scientific instrument, PTP equipment is dedicated to one specialized purpose: keeping devices synchronized. For that reason alone, PTP networks have much sharper time resolutions, and unlike NTP, PTP devices will actually timestamp the amount of time that synchronization messages spend in each device, which accounts for device latency.

And:

NTP networks have extra latency and less accuracy simply because they're software-based, and all timestamp requests have to wait for the local operating system.

I know that NTP is not good enough for the application domain I work in, and I suspect the same would be true of any environment trying to synchronize 1080p video from multiple sources.

 

[nabwong]

The day the bills win in New England is the day I’m an astronaut. Lol

How your mission to Uranus?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If only the Bills has gotten those extra 3-4 points (in an eventual 21-point loss), they would have won the game 81-13 on their way to a 102 game win streak. Brady would have retired at halftime had Benjam’s TD stood. Israel and Palestine would have joined in a massive group hug and agreed to live peacefully. The US literacy would have risen dramatically in a matter of days. 90% of carbon emissions would have ceased overnight in favor of clean energy. Momentum is real.

 

[libra957]

The day the bills win in New England is the day I’m an astronaut. Lol

Careful now, they won last year.

 

[Uncle Rico]

How can it still look like a TD to you when riveron made a video saying HERE is when he has control of the ball and SEE the foot is off the ground then comes down out of bounds.
It really is crystal clear unless you are saying the eye test says it’s close snuggle so give it to him.

Yup. I really think the perception problem is that CBS focused too much on the split screen. That sort of thing will never be conclusive. The angle they show starting about 35 seconds into the video below shows it all, just fine. And yet CBS only showed it once Sunday.

 

[Ring 6]

Yup. I really think the perception problem is that CBS focused too much on the split screen. That sort of thing will never be conclusive. The angle they show starting about 35 seconds into the video below shows it all, just fine. And yet CBS only showed it once Sunday.

Ultimately there is one man who is paid for his skill at making these decisions.
So when he shows a video and explains his call and yiu can clearly see everything he said is absolutely correct why are we back to wondering what those 50 drink guys in a bar or players coaches and owners of the team it correctly went against think?