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Brady and Montana Factually

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Nov 1, 2011.

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  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We are approaching the point where Tom Brady will have as many games started and passes thrown as Joe Montana. Here is hiow they compare at this point, all facts, no opinion.

    CAREER STATS

    Brady
    150 starts 116-34 w/l 3180/4982 63.8% 37105 YDS 7.4/att 279/111 TD/Int 95.7QB rating
    Montana
    164 starts 117-47 w/l 3409/5391 63.2% 40551 YDS 7.5/att 273/139
    TD/Int 92.3 QB rating

    PLAYOFFS
    Brady 14-5 3 SB Trophies
    19 games 62.2% 4407 yds 30/16 TDInt 85.7rating
    Montana 17-8 4 SB Trophies
    25 games 62.7% 5772 yds 45/21 TDInt 95.6rating

    By the end of this season they will be within 5 career starts and about 100 pass attempts. Depending upon the post season, the primary factor separating these 2 may be David Tyrees head.
  2. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    A 4th SB for Brady will cement his place as a top three QB of all time beyond any argument.

    The 4th one will be Brady's team.
  3. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think he is already top 3, who would you have ahead of him now?
    I think the 4th = GOAT.
    I guess no one wants to discuss this and interupt the *****fest.
  4. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    There's no doubt to me that Brady is the GOAT (if such a thing can be claimed, and exists - these debates might be fruitless given how the game has changed) and better than Montana.

    Which makes it all the more frustrating he's just a freakish hail mary player to Tyree away from that being universally recognized. 4 rings and 3 SB MVPs to add to 2 MVPs would be something no one could debate with.

    It makes it all the more frustrating that we've blown chances at cementing this team's legacy multiple times - to connect it to another thread.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  5. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    In all honesty, the Pats *SHOULD* have won SB titles in 2006 and 2007. Losing that 2006 game to the Colts was just the worst thing...blowing a big lead and coming up short in the end. They would have crushed that Bears team that year. And obviously, 2007...I mean, not just the Tyree catch, but the 3 non-holding calls on that play alone, the Asante almost pick, and even on 4th down earlier in the drive Jacobs gets a first down by about 3 inches....good grief.

    But woulda shoulda coulda. When all is said and done, we'll look back on the career of Tom Brady and - without any question whatsoever - call him a top 3 QB of all time. Minimum. He still has a chance to cement the #1 spot, but in the eyes of some he's not there yet, and I understand that.
  6. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Well...had Brady won SB42 he would be the GOAT and remembered for that last drive he made.
  7. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I agree completely. Which to tie it back to your thread - if Brady & Belichick leave five years from now without another ring to cement their status, and without them the Pats don't win a Super Bowl again in our lifetimes, how much more painful will those missed opportunities feel?
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  8. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Alot of people will disagree with that. The main reason for it being spygate.
  9. Uncle Rico

    Uncle Rico Rookie

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    #70 Jersey

    A few things that jump out to me about Montana:
    - Regular season stats over his career hold up pretty well when you consider different eras. He and Walsh (and Rice et al) were the right combination at the right time.
    - So, wait, Montana lost eight playoff games? We all know he's 4-0 in Super Bowls, so that means Montana-led teams that made the playoffs were 4 for 12 in making it to the Super Bowl, compared to 4 for 8 for Brady. Can't argue with Montana's place as the best Super Bowl QB ever, but the notion that he never lost a big game (such as playoffs) seems not quite accurate.
    - A further look at Montana in the post-season: He had 11 TDs and 0 picks in the 4 SBs, the stuff of legends. But that leaves him with 34 TDs and 21 INTs in his other 21 playoff games. Still very good ( see Brady's stats in 19 games), but not as perfect as some would say.

    Bottom line for me is that Montana's perfection in Super Bowls was phenomenal and that keeps him a notch above TFB. But he wasn't a perfect post-season QB. One more ring for Brady pulls him even and two put him at the top.
  10. DaBronxPats14

    DaBronxPats14 Rookie

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    That gives all media & haters time to pick apart why Brady isn't GOAT but in those 5 Yrs we MUST see how Rodgers and Ben Rothsss fair.
  11. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 Rookie

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    Dont forget how they stopped the clock to measure on that 4th down, didn'tmeasure, and then never restarted the clock thus giving the Giants a free timeout which was huge.
  12. scott99

    scott99 Rookie

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    So I guess John Elway and Terry Bradshaw get bumped out of the Hall Of Fame and top 20 ratings because of the Cap-Circumventing Broncos of the late 90's and the Steroided up Steelers of the 70's ?
  13. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    You're probably right...but it's only because a lot of people are stupid. He's been even better since the Pats stopped taping, and has two MVPs to prove it.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  14. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 Rookie

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    But..but.. we haven't won a Superbowl since 2004 or even played in one since 2007 because you know, those things are easy to get to. Further it's ALL about the camera, it has nothing to do with Ty Law, Richard Seymour, Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinest, Romeo Crennel, etc.

    Really every time someone says "they havent won a Superbowl since spygate" as proof of anything it copletely invalidates their opinions to me.
  15. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    It's not a reason its an excuse. A lot of people won't give Brady, or Belichick for that matter, the credit they deserve out of jealousy and hatred. Luckily for those people they have a convenient excuse in spygate to discredit anything they have done, even though deep down inside they know he is one of the greatest QB's of all time. I can't comment on Brady vs Montana because I never got to see Montana play, but those statistic posted are undeniable. I'm just lucky that I have one of, if not the greatest QB of all time leading my team on sundays.
  16. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I don't know about Big Ben...I mean, the Steelers won that first SB in spite of him. But Rodgers is on an epic pace and that team is setup very well. That team could do some legitimate damage. All the more reason for the Pats to do their best to win one this year and prevent Green Bay from going back to back...
  17. scott99

    scott99 Rookie

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    I've seen a lot of QB's in my life, started watching football in 1968 when I was 6. So I've seen a ton of QB's. The greatest I've ever seen (IMO) was Joe Montana. In the Super Bowl, where it matters most, he was 4-0, enough said. Never lost a SB, and was the main reason they won all 4, comebacks, slaughters, it didn't matter, he was deadly in those games. The destruction of the Broncos (in 1989 I believe), was the best showing by a QB I've ever seen in a Super Bowl. 11 Td's and 0 Ints (ZERO INTS !!) in the 4 SB's.

    Dan Marino was the best pure thrower I've ever seen, with Manning coming pretty close to that, But I think Brady will finish ahead of both of them in the alltime rankings once he's done. One thing I like about Brady is, he's humble about all the ranking talk. When he passed Montana in the top 10 all time TD lead, he said something to the effect "We throw a lot more than they did in Montana's days". Pure class all the way.

    I don't think Brady is better than Montana was, though by the time he will be finished, he may come close. His regular season stats will be much higher than Montana's when he's finished, but the playoffs, especially when it counted in the SB, I feel Montana will always be the greatest of all time, of course, that's just my opinion.
  18. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Why are we being so modest?

    I cant picture many 49ers fans coming out and saying Tom was the goat, better than Joe?

    IMO, its simple they each led their team to 4 super bowls and while Brady only won 3 of them he did lead a drive to take the lead in the last 3 min of loss. So, close to a push slight edge to Montana. But then you have to factor in the statistical greatness of the 07 year and to me that pushes things back in Brady's favor.

    We can talk about the eras they played in but I think the advancement of the passing game can be countered by the salary cap (one got the benifit of the passing rules the other got the benifit of keeping its talent around).

    In the end I think these two are so close to eachother that is splitting hairs and I chose to give the slight edge to the guy I have watched more. But the best part is that Brady still has time to finish pushing in the stake on his claim. I say one SB win and its his all alone that would tie him at 4 and allow for 07 to be the tie breaker.

    I dont think there is much to argue about calling these two guys 1 and 2 respectively. I say Elway 3, Peyton 4 and Marino 5. With an honarable mention to Unitas who may be beter than 3 of the five on this list I just cant put him ahead of guys I have seen in my life.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  19. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is stupid
  20. chris_in_sunnyvale

    chris_in_sunnyvale Rookie

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    The '87 49ers 13-2 (10-2 if you don't count the 3-0 record with strikebusters) and were #1 on both offense and defense. They were the runaway favorites to win SB22. They ended up one-and-done as Montana got *benched* in favor of Steve Young in a blowout home loss to the Vikings. This was the 3rd straight year of one-and-done...

    In '86, the 49ers got demolished by the eventual champion Giants, putting up a measly 3 points in the process. Montana got knocked out of the game by Jim Burt (while throwing a pick-6 to LT). They just didn't have the team to win it all that year.

    In '85, the defending champion 49ers made the playoffs as a wildcard, but went to NY and bowed out meakly 17-3. Montana had a rough day.

    His 49ers also had some close calls (a la 2006 Pats) to making the big game:

    In '83, they lost a heartbreaking NFCCG in Washington when Ronnie Lott got called for a *very* questionable PI (or hold) call away from the play. Although many 49ers attributed this loss as the motivator for their 18-1 title season the next year so maybe the '84 title doesn't happen if they win in '83.

    In '90, they were one Roger Craig fumble away from going to their 3rd straight SB and attempt a 3-peat. It should be noted that Montana may not have played in SB25 as he got knocked out of this one, too (what's up with the Giants knocking him out?) and there was only 1 week between games.

    In '93, he *again* got knocked out of a conference championship game as his Chiefs fell to the soon-to-be-four-time-loser Bills.

    In the '81 NFCCG, everyone remembers "The Catch" which was indeed a clutch play to finish off a clutch drive. What everyone forgets is that the rest of the game was a turnoverfest on both sides*, with Montana partaking a-plenty. He had 3 picks, two of which were outright ugly throws.

    * Even after The Catch, Dallas got the ball to midfield before they fumbled it away. Remember, they only needed a FG to win.

    They are really close and one can make good arguments either way which one edges out the other...and it's edging out as there is no clear-cut favorite.

    Regards,
    Chris
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  21. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Great re-hash Chris.

    Your out in Cali, can you answer my question. Are there many 49ers fans walking around saying that Brady is better than Montana?

    I suspect the answer is no (but I should let you answer) and I again ask why we are being so modest? This Tom kid is the best of all time IMO.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  22. chris_in_sunnyvale

    chris_in_sunnyvale Rookie

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    Paraphrasing the late Amy Winehouse:

    "I asked the locals if Brady's better, they said 'No no no'!"

    Regards,
    Chris
  23. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    I have to chime in before things get ridiculous. Brady is not the best QB of all time... YET. Joe Montana is.

    You can't compare stats straight up because passing was much more difficult in the 1980's than it is now. Right now we have Cam Newton on pace for 4800 yards and tons of NFL QB's on pace for 30+ TD's. The new passing rules make it impossible for a defense to stop the pass. To use a baseball metric, if you compare Brady vs. the avg QB this decade and Montana vs the avg QB in his decade, that shows you how much more dominant a guy was.

    For example, Big Ben has 2 rings and huge stats in the inflated passing ero, but there is no way he's better than 2-ring winners from a long time ago.

    Brady needs to win 1 more ring to be level with Montana. 2 more to be the undispited GOAT in any argument, not just with Montana.
  24. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for the stats.

    For now, I'd have Bart Starr and Joe ahead of TB based simply on winning NFL championships (five and four), and with comparable overall performances, accepting that QB rating is not a good gauge across eras. I also have a hard time leaving Otto Graham out of the discussion (four), but, even though he technically played in the "Modern Era" of the NFL, it was definitely a different time, so I could see someone disagreeing there.

    With four, it would be tough to say that Brady isn't GOAT since he would have done it with Free Agency and a cap. But for now, Joe never went to a league title game that he lost and he gets the edge. Starr lost his first trip to the big game in that memorable showdown with the Flying Dutchman and Chuck Bednarik for Lombardi's only defeat in a title game in his second year as HC (I was a kid in Philly at the time and still remember Bednarik sitting on Hornung as time expired in that game...BTW, there were 15 (!) future HOF'ers on the field or sidelines that day...I wonder if there ever were more in a single championship game before or since...), but Starr did end up with five "rings."

    As far as "David Tyree's" head or helmet goes, as a homer I would agree, but every team has it's "almost" stories, so in the end it has to be a matter of W's and L's in big games.

    Thanks again.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  25. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I dont really like the era comparisons as I stated before one could make an argument that free agency rules helped Joe at the time and have hurt Tom.

    I also dont by the argument that Joe or Marino or anyone would automatically be better in this era. Statistically maybe they do look a little better but maybe the new rules cost Joe a SB or two as his teams would look diferent due to FAency and due to how a team would be constructed in another era.

    I think you need to take the era out of the equation and I think if you factor in on a combo of winning and stats it tells a pretty good story of what the guy was capable of (stats) and what was actually accomplished (winning) and era is taking into context in the winning category as you can only beat those you played who obviously were in the same era.

    Now if you have been reading my posts you will see I am basically of the opinion these two are the best and right now it is splitting hairs as to who should be on top except I am a Pats fan so my bias has me chosing him.
  26. sly24

    sly24 Rookie

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    I really think BB's decision to not pay Branch in 06 cost us the superbowl. I clearly remember Brady had nobody to throw to except Troy Brown and I'm sure 100% of the bears fans would disagree but that year it didn't matter if it was the Colts or Pats in the superbowl, the bears still would have lost.

    For 2007.. it still hurts everytime I think about it. Asante who had always been clutch for postseason picks drops an easy game-ending one. Rodney one of the hardest hitters and one of our most clutch guys in 2003 and 2004 can't shake off the ball from Tyree's fingertips and above his head. The 1000 non-calls of holding during Eli's scramble.. it's almost unbelievable.
  27. dsr

    dsr Rookie

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    I'm a Packer fan and therefore biased, but Bart Starr's name definitely belongs in this discussion. Best ever post-season winning percentage (9-1), best ever post-season QBR (104.8, in the sixties, where a QBR of 100 in a single game was unusual). [Rodgers 112.6, but it's too early to bring him into this discussion.]

    As for Montana v. Brady - it's a draw. When they're from different eras and there's so many arguments on either side, I can't give either one the edge.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  28. tests

    tests Banned

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    damn, you have been watching football for a long time. If you do not mind me asking, how does aaron rodgers compare TALENT WISE to the other greats (the marinos, steve youngs, elways, montanas etc)
  29. tests

    tests Banned

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    i agree with this. Starr deserves some recognition as well.

    I think aaron rodgers (if he continues winning sbs and playing as well as he currently is) will be up there as well.

    On another note, i just cant take peyton manning seriously. He is a regular season stud... but a playoff failure.
  30. FSF

    FSF Rookie

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    Given that most Patriot fans didn't even know they had a team before 2001, a quick history lesson would easily reveal that the first team to utilize PEDs in pro football was the San Diego Chargers in 1963 upon the hiring of strength and conditioning coach Alvin Roy. It's significant because the Chargers went from 4-10 to 11-3 and obliterated the Boston Patriots 51-10 in the AFL Championship Game.

    Roy went on to join the Chiefs, Cowboys and Raiders prior to each winning a Super Bowl, none won any before he arrived and each won very rapidly after his arrival. Roy was the individual who introduced the little pink tablets to each team - and to be fair, steroids were no more illegal of a substance as cleats were in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Football's first steroids team: the 1963 San Diego Chargers - ESPN

    Although Patriots fans want to dismiss spygate because their belief so many other teams were doing it, how ignorant much a person be to think that a proven substance that was legal was only being used by one team in the NFL?
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