BB on Jamie Collins

[mayoclinic]

Belichick on Jamie Collins after the Colts' game:

“I think he’s pretty comfortable wherever he is, whether he’s in line taking blockers or blitzing, or covering tight ends from in close. He’s a very versatile athlete that’s smart, works hard, really has a great team attitude. I love having him on our team.”

It Is What It Is » Jamie Collins, Dont?a Hightower spark defense in playoff win over Colts

Pretty succinct summary of what BB wants from a draft pick. Versatile athletes that are smart, work hard, and have a great team attitude. What's so hard to find about that?

It seems to me that description would apply to Chandler Jones, Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Julian Edelman, Shane Vereen, Rob Ninkovich (not a Pats' draftee), Vince Wilfork and the much-maligned Dont'a Hightower.

Something to think about when evaluating guys for 2014 who might be good fits.

 

[manxman2601]

Belichick on Jamie Collins after the Colts' game:



It Is What It Is » Jamie Collins, Dont?a Hightower spark defense in playoff win over Colts

Pretty succinct summary of what BB wants from a draft pick. Versatile athletes that are smart, work hard, and have a great team attitude. What's so hard to find about that?

It seems to me that description would apply to Chandler Jones, Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Julian Edelman, Shane Vereen, Rob Ninkovich (not a Pats' draftee), Vince Wilfork and the much-maligned Dont'a Hightower.

Something to think about when evaluating guys for 2014 who might be good fits.

The problem for us, is how do you scout this from our amateur perspective. Research helps, but ultimately there's no way for us to know. This was why I was so confident in Markus Wheaton and Marvin Jones as picks - they fit this description perfectly or so I thought.

 

[manxman2601]

I mentioned Roosevelt Nix of Kent State in another thread partly because he answers the description you've just posted in part.

Here's how NFL Draft Scout describe his position:

Position: ILB

Pos 2: DE/LB/FB

And he played DT for his college team. (he's only 260lb though).

Does that count?

Roosevelt Nix | Kent State, ILB : 2014 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

 

[JerseyShore99]

I mentioned Roosevelt Nix of Kent State in another thread partly because he answers the description you've just posted in part.

Here's how NFL Draft Scout describe his position:

Position: ILB

Pos 2: DE/LB/FB

And he played DT for his college team. (he's only 260lb though).

Does that count?

Roosevelt Nix*|*Kent State,*ILB*:*2014 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

If he's smart and well coached that sounds like a BB fit

 

[JerseyShore99]

Great thread man, always enjoy small write-ups on BB's draft philosophy and targets

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Interesting because Nate Solder was considered the most athletic O line guy when he was coming out, but people had their concerns about his ability.

Then BB drafts Jones and Collins and the first thing that is written about these guys is they are extremely athletic.

Is BB now starting to place greater emphasis on the ubber athletic types?

 

[JerseyShore99]

Interesting because Nate Solder was considered the most athletic O line guy when he was coming out, but people had their concerns about his ability.

Then BB drafts Jones and Collins and the first thing that is written about these guys is they are extremely athletic.

Is BB now starting to place greater emphasis on the ubber athletic types?

Hell I'd take athletes over more Urban Meyer recruits, he's literally screwed us over on every single UF player

 

[manxman2601]

Interesting because Nate Solder was considered the most athletic O line guy when he was coming out, but people had their concerns about his ability.

Then BB drafts Jones and Collins and the first thing that is written about these guys is they are extremely athletic.

Is BB now starting to place greater emphasis on the ubber athletic types?

I don't think it's necessarily athleticism on it's own, it's athleticism and size or length combined. Solder and Jones had outstanding length. Hightower was a 270lb LB that could run 4.7. Collins was all about athleticism, size was less a factor here. Heck, even Blount matches this size/athleticism criteria. I'm looking at the biggest and freakiest athletes when I'm looking at a first round BB pick this year. And if they offer versatility then even better. It's why I like Travis Swanson so much as a fit. Supposed to have long arms, be very athletic, is big for a center and has the size to play guard.

 

[mayoclinic]

Interesting because Nate Solder was considered the most athletic O line guy when he was coming out, but people had their concerns about his ability.

Then BB drafts Jones and Collins and the first thing that is written about these guys is they are extremely athletic.

Is BB now starting to place greater emphasis on the ubber athletic types?

I think that BB loves athleticism, but it has to be in the context of some of these other things. For example, Nate Solder had great versatility for an OT (he has played both LT and RT for us, and has lined up at TE). I believe Moses Cabrera was on the Colorado staff, and I'm sure the Pats had good input as to Solder's work ethic and unselfishness, both of which he has shown with the Pats. (BTW, I loved the replay of LeGarrette Blount's 73 yard run yesterday, which showed Solder sprinting 40 yards downfield behind Blount.)

While he is certainly very athletic, one of the things about Chandler Jones coming out was that he lacked pure edge speed. But I think that BB saw his versatility and blue-collar work ethic, and valued those things more highly. That's one reason I'm so high on Trent Murphy fitting in. He seems to have all those attributes in spades.

Jamie Collins is certainly a freakish athlete. But I'm guessing the Pats scouted him fairly heavily to look at his intangibles. The fact that he had made 3 position switches in 3 years and produced at all 3 spoke to his intelligence and ability to quickly master changes.

Not to say that there haven't been misses as well in terms of personnel evaluation, if these are criteria that the Pats keep in mind.

 

[stelfans]

Collins was described as a freak and so far he has lived up to that. And his learning curve is absolutely amazing.

btw, talking about freak athlete's take a look at Justin Jackson from Wake Forest.

The 6-foot-1, 230-pound playmaker has been clocked in the 40 at 4.44 and has a broad jump over 11-feet. On top of that, according to Wake’s strength coach, he has a hang clean of 400 pounds.

 

[manxman2601]

That's one reason I'm so high on Trent Murphy fitting in. He seems to have all those attributes in spades.

I would watch his 3-cone very closely then:

Jake Bequette - 6.90
Michael Buchanan - 6.91
Rob Ninkovich - 6.96
Mark Anderson - 6.96
Jeremy Mincey - 7.01
Justin Francis - 7.05
Chandler Jones - 7.07
Roosevelt Colvin - 7.08

I know that 3-cone talk can be a little boring and that tyey aren't all draft picks, but that's a pretty tidy list of Patriot pass rushers there and a definite pattern.

Note 1: No info on Tully Banta-Cain, Andre Carter or Jermaine Cunningham.

Note 2: It makes the alleged interest in Michael Johnson interesting. 7.43.


Edit: By tidy, I meant close to complete - at least recently.

 

[mayoclinic]

The problem for us, is how do you scout this from our amateur perspective. Research helps, but ultimately there's no way for us to know. This was why I was so confident in Markus Wheaton and Marvin Jones as picks - they fit this description perfectly or so I thought.

There's no reason to think that they didn't. There's only so many players you can pick, and just because the Pats didn't draft a guy doesn't mean they didn't like him. The Pats had no picks in 2012 between 90 and 197, which made it difficult to pick up Jones. And all we really know about Wheaton is that the Pats clearly had Aaron Dobson rated higher.

 

[mayoclinic]

I would watch his 3-cone very closely then:

Jake Bequette - 6.90
Michael Buchanan - 6.91
Rob Ninkovich - 6.96
Mark Anderson - 6.96
Jeremy Mincey - 7.01
Justin Francis - 7.05
Chandler Jones - 7.07
Roosevelt Colvin - 7.08

I know that 3-cone talk can be a little boring and that tyey aren't all draft picks, but that's a pretty tidy list of Patriot pass rushers there and a definite pattern.

Note 1: No info on Tully Banta-Cain, Andre Carter or Jermaine Cunningham.

Note 2: It makes the alleged interest in Michael Johnson interesting. 7.43.

I think Murphy's numbers will be fairly similar to Chandler Jones'. But he won't be a "workout warrior", and Stanford doesn't emphasize maximizing Combine-type numbers in terms of their strength and conditioning program, which has gotten a lot of attention from the pros. The emphasize flexibility, balance and endurance as much as pure strength and speed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/31/s...raining-regimen-redefines-strength.html?_r=0

It's an interesting read, FWIW.

 

[manxman2601]

I think Murphy's numbers will be fairly similar to Chandler Jones'. But he won't be a "workout warrior", and Stanford doesn't emphasize maximizing Combine-type numbers in terms of their strength and conditioning program, which has gotten a lot of attention from the pros. The emphasize flexibility, balance and endurance as much as pure strength and speed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/31/s...raining-regimen-redefines-strength.html?_r=0

It's an interesting read, FWIW.

And maybe, just maybe mind, that's why we don't draft from Stanford.

For all the ribbing Al Davies got for drafting speed guys, BB is almost guided as much by athleticism as Al Davies was, albeit often combined with size. Smarts are important, but not necessarily at the expense of athleticism. If Trent Murphy goes 7.42 in the 3-cone (random number there), I'd be prepared to lay a pretty big wager he won't be drafted by Bill. Which of course means that this is exactly what will happen.

And it was a good read thanks.

And please don't take this as me being anti Murphy, I'm just trying to think logically.

 

[mayoclinic]

Collins was described as a freak and so far he has lived up to that. And his learning curve is absolutely amazing.

btw, talking about freak athlete's take a look at Justin Jackson from Wake Forest.

Wake has always had one of the most advanced strength and conditioning programs in the country. Their strength coach Ethan Reeve has been a big advocate of some of the methods listed in the Stanford article, and has influenced a number of NFL teams. He's a legend in the S&C world.

The Official Site of Wake Forest Demon Deacon Athletics - Traditions

And maybe, just maybe mind, that's why we don't draft from Stanford.

For all the ribbing Al Davies got for drafting speed guys, BB is almost guided as much by athleticism as Al Davies was, albeit often combined with size. Smarts are important, but not necessarily at the expense of athleticism. If Trent Murphy goes 7.42 in the 3-cone (random number there), I'd be prepared to lay a pretty big wager he won't be drafted by Bill. Which of course means that this is exactly what will happen.

And it was a good read thanks.

And please don't take this as me being anti Murphy, I'm just trying to think logically.

That's a distinct possibility, which had occurred to me independently. But I've learned to "never say never" with BB. I do think that Murphy won't appear as much of a freak athlete as someone like Kony Ealy, and that's one reason that he may be available when we pick.

It's a separate subject, but the Pats have a lot of injuries, and they seem very traditional in their S&C approach. A lot of NFL teams have adopted Gray Cook's functional movement screen described in the NYT article, and many have integrated other less-traditional forms of strength and conditioning including kettlebells, eccentric movement and strength training, etc. (Note: the Colts are one team that has done this, and they've been as injury prone as any team in the NFL this year, so I'm not trying to suggest a clear association.)

 

[Snake Eyes]

And maybe, just maybe mind, that's why we don't draft from Stanford.

For all the ribbing Al Davies got for drafting speed guys, BB is almost guided as much by athleticism as Al Davies was, albeit often combined with size. Smarts are important, but not necessarily at the expense of athleticism. If Trent Murphy goes 7.42 in the 3-cone (random number there), I'd be prepared to lay a pretty big wager he won't be drafted by Bill. Which of course means that this is exactly what will happen.

And it was a good read thanks.

And please don't take this as me being anti Murphy, I'm just trying to think logically.

That might be a knock against BB rather than on Stanford.

JPP had a 3 cone of 7.18
Suh had a 3 cone of 7.21
Aldon Smith was at 7.19

And as you pointed out, Jake Bequette had a 3 cone of 6.90.

I don't mean for these to be exact apples to apples comparisons but I think there's a big risk of putting too much stock in these measurables.

 

[manxman2601]

That might be a knock against BB rather than on Stanford.

JPP had a 3 cone of 7.18
Suh had a 3 cone of 7.21

For comparison Jake Bequette had a 3 cone of 6.90.

I don't mean for these to be exact apples to apples comparisons but I think there's a big risk of putting too much stock in these measurables.

That maybe but it does seem to be a pattern that needs consideration.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That maybe but it does seem to be a pattern that needs consideration.

Sure, those numbers are a data point and I don't think you'd want to ignore them but I think they are probably better pieces of data to be considered as well as just looking at tape. The problem with tape is that there's a ton of data to sort through along with complicated analysis, theoretically if you can just look at various numbers you could by pass much of that process but getting fixated on the numbers can lead to poor conclusions.

Quite frankly I'm much more interested in watching the skill drills than the 3 cone, 40, etc.

 

[manxman2601]

Sure, those numbers are a data point and I don't think you'd want to ignore them but I think they are probably better pieces of data to be considered as well as just looking at tape. The problem with tape is that there's a ton of data to sort through along with complicated analysis, theoretically if you can just look at various numbers you could by pass much of that process but getting fixated on the numbers can lead to poor conclusions.

Quite frankly I'm much more interested in watching the skill drills than the 3 cone, 40, etc.

Sure, there were plenty of defensive ends with 3-cones in that range that BB didn't draft. I agree it's a data point, I'm just saying it's a significant one. As for the drills, I'm sure they have some use, and I agree they are fun to watch, but I would have thought that teams would have seen the individual prospects skills whilst studying film.

 

[Husse]

I mentioned Roosevelt Nix of Kent State in another thread partly because he answers the description you've just posted in part.

Here's how NFL Draft Scout describe his position:

Position: ILB

Pos 2: DE/LB/FB

And he played DT for his college team. (he's only 260lb though).

Does that count?

Roosevelt Nix*|*Kent State,*ILB*:*2014 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Probably too short for BB though.