Armond Armstead, Josh Kline, Michael Bucannon, Josh Boyce, Braxton Cave, Mark Harrison

[Brady6]

Yes, the Patriots are going to cut Josh Kline who stepped in at LG and was better than solid when Mankins was playing LT.. No. If anything, Kline has a chance to win the RG job.

Beauharnais is likely to be released/cut.

You know ironically right after writing that I came across this article on ESPN when I was running at the gym, so apparently I was posting in ignorance because I misevaluated Kline’s performance.

So you are right on here, and I was way off.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/124589/josh-kline-made-impression-on-teammates

 

[strngplyr]

Exactly, look at Buchanan compared to Ealy –

Michael Buchanan
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6053
Weight: 255
Arms: 34”
Hands: 9 7/8”
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
20 Yard Dash: 2.67
10 Yard Dash: 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'05"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.44
3-Cone Drill: 6.91

Kony Ealy
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6040
Weight: 273
Arms: 34 ½”
Hands: 9 ½”
40 Yard Dash: 4.92
20 Yard Dash:
10 Yard Dash:
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 31
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.45
3-Cone Drill: 6.83

You could easily make the case that Buchanan is the more intriguing prospect.

How do you figure Buchanan is the more intriguing physical prospect when you take a snapshot of two guys who are incredibly similar athletically, yet one weighs 20lbs more?

I'm gonna take the bigger guy every time if he can do all the things as good or better than someone who weighs 20lbs less. That's an impressive athlete.

 

[ripatsfan91]

Ealey vs. Buchannan:

I like Buchannan better. I think Ealy is the product of a very thin 4-3 end class. Should be a 2nd/3rd round prospect IMO

 

[Brady6]

How do you figure Buchanan is the more intriguing physical prospect when you take a snapshot of two guys who are incredibly similar athletically, yet one weighs 20lbs more?

I'm gonna take the bigger guy every time if he can do all the things as good or better than someone who weighs 20lbs less. That's an impressive athlete.

Buchanan ran a 4.71 40-yard dash, compared to a 4.92 40-yard dash by Ealy that is a significant difference, Buchanan also displayed better leaping ability and is nearly 6’6” compared to Ealy who is 6’4”. Buchanan was coming off a broken jaw that resulted in a weight loss of 30lbs so he was lighter than normal at the time of the combine. Personally I would take the more explosive player over the heavier player any day, but if you prefer Ealy than I can respect that.

I am not saying that Buchanan is better than Ealy, I am just saying that his talent level is very comparable to a top prospect in this draft class so any player in rounds 1-3 would not necessarily be an upgrade.

 

[strngplyr]

Buchanan ran a 4.71 40-yard dash, compared to a 4.92 40-yard dash by Ealy that is a significant difference, Buchanan also displayed better leaping ability and is nearly 6’6” compared to Ealy who is 6’4”. Buchanan was coming off a broken jaw that resulted in a weight loss of 30lbs so he was lighter than normal at the time of the combine. Personally I would take the more explosive player over the heavier player any day, but if you prefer Ealy than I can respect that.

I am not saying that Buchanan is better than Ealy, I am just saying that his talent level is very comparable to a top prospect in this draft class so any player in rounds 1-3 would not necessarily be an upgrade.

I'm not saying either is better myself, trust me, just arguing that I'm more impressed with Ealy's numbers given the difference in weight.

I also don't find 2 tenths of a second that great of a difference. Open a stop watch, try to stop it within two-tenths of a second and tell me how big of a deal that is. It's not.

 

[patfanken]

Interesting thread, guys. You see this is all about hope, coaching, and coachability. We all know about the dozens of players who slipped through the cracks and wound up being great players. You see that most were already great athletes BEFORE they were devalued for some reason by the draft process.

The simple fact is that SOME players get better, both physically and mentally during their careers. Brady didn't have a "gun" when he entered the league, in fact his lack of arm strength was probably the main reason he fell so far. But over the years, he improved his strength and mechanics to the point where everyone has forgotten even during the time when he won his 3 rings, Brady was the weak armed game manager. Now when people describe strong armed QB's, Brady is often the exemplar. Ninkovich is another example of a player who took years to develop into what he's become.

The question is, when you come right down to it. Who progresses and who doesn't. I would wager that Nate Ebner has measurables that are fairly equal to all the best S choices people are talking about. Physically he COULD be the kind of S we are all wishing for. Big, physical, but with enough athletic ability to not to be a liability in coverage. The problem is, what he has in physical skills, he lacks in experience at his position. In that respect he's much like Julian Edelman.

The Bottom line is, who knows. There is no reason why anyone shouldn't believe that any and ALL of the players mentioned in the OP, won't eventually explode on to the scene. We shouldn't be shocked because we've seen it happen so often. Likewise, it shouldn't be that shocking if some, or even most of them fail to become anything more than what they are now. What IS very likely is that some of them will continue to develop and end up making significant contributions to the team. Which ones? That's anyone guess. All those who knew for certain Julian Edelman would become a 100 catch WR before last season, raise your hands. That's what I thought. I was one of his biggest supporters and I wouldn't have guessed that.

But I guess that's what being a fan is all about. We try to look into the future and speculate on what will happen. That way if we are right, we have bragging rights, and when we are wrong, we can conveniently forget.

 

[primetime]

I was replying to AJ who said any player taken in rounds 1-3 of this draft would be an upgrade over the players the OP listed. That is not true in terms of talent Armstead, Buchanan, and Boyce rank favorably with just about any player. Since we are comparing them to potential, draft picks who have no NFL experience either the combine results are completely comparable since both the players have limited or no NFL experience.

You call me single minded but you completely ignored the context of the discussion and just attacked the fact that I introduced combine and college production into the conversation. Well Primetime we are talking about potential draft picks compared to players entering their second season with limited to no experience in the NFL, I am not sure what where the veterans are that you are referring to here but feel free to point them out Mr. Multi Mind.


Not every player is going to an all pro from day one. That really does not matter that much to me, Jamie Collins did not have a sack in the regular season but posters still expect big things from him this season, I thought Boyce and Buchanan both showed flashes that if duplicated on a consistent basis would make them good players.

It's possible that you just completely forgot, but you posted Danny Amendola's combine numbers approximately seven thousand times over the course of the last few months (in order to compare him with people like TJ Moe, now an "intriguing prospect" for the Arena Football League).

Through your insane logic, Mark Harrison is a "more intriguing" prospect than Sammy Watkins. After all, Harrison has better combine numbers and has had a year of seasoning. And neither has done anything in the pros, so we have nothing to judge them on but combine numbers. Right?

There's so much more to football than broad jump numbers. I'm not sure why you have this fixation on the combine as the thing on which all football players should be judged. Even if you never watched them play in college (which I suspect is 100% true), here's the simple fact: Buchanan was a late 7th round pick while Ealy will be picked in the 1st round. Clearly, they are not comparable prospects anywhere except in your empty skull.

 

[cstjohn17]

Armond Armstead, Josh Kline, Michael Bucannon, Josh Boyce, Braxton Cave, Mark Harrison and Steve Beauharnais

What do we expect from each of these guys next season?

Where we go in the draft depends entirely in the belief (or lack of) that BB and his staff have in each of these guys IMO.

I feel like Carnac the Magnificent... What is a never been a scrub and 5 JAGs.

Best case is these guys compete for roster spots 50-53 then in 5 months we never have to hear their names again.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Exactly, look at Buchanan compared to Ealy –

Michael Buchanan
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6053
Weight: 255
Arms: 34”
Hands: 9 7/8”
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
20 Yard Dash: 2.67
10 Yard Dash: 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'05"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.44
3-Cone Drill: 6.91

Kony Ealy
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6040
Weight: 273
Arms: 34 ½”
Hands: 9 ½”
40 Yard Dash: 4.92
20 Yard Dash:
10 Yard Dash:
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 31
Broad Jump: 09'06"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.45
3-Cone Drill: 6.83

You could easily make the case that Buchanan is the more intriguing prospect.

Ealy is an inch shorter, and 20lbs heavier... therefore, much more bulk that is required for DE.

 

[RayClay]

I am basing it on their combine or pro day workout results along with their college production. Essentially that is the same way you would assess the potential draft picks in this year’s draft that AJ stated would be an upgrade over these player (rounds 1-3).

Armstead, Boyce, and even Buchanan are as physically talented as anyone at their positions in the NFL

Calling that a stretch, would be an understatement. ACanadian league guy, 4th round pick and 7th round pick. What about teams drafting in the top half of round one? They can't be that stupid, can they?

 

[supafly]

Yes, the Patriots are going to cut Josh Kline who stepped in at LG and was better than solid when Mankins was playing LT.. No. If anything, Kline has a chance to win the RG job.

I fully agree with your thoughts on Kline here. There's a possibility that we may already have an interior OL replacement from the Scarnecchia pipeline. Actually, I am fully expecting him to make the team at the very least and be one of our 8-9 OL for the 53 man roster.

Solder
Mankins
Connelly
Cannon
Vollmer
Wendell
Kline

That's 7 right off the bat, with Cannon having the capacity to play both tackle and guard. Ditto for Mankins, although only really in dire need situations. That would give us 3 tackles if you count Cannon, and 4 interior positions. The more one looks at it, the higher there may be a possibility that we could even fill a tackle position as opposed to the expected IOL. Obviously, that depends on whether or not both of Connelly/Wendell will be staying on and starting, and how Belichick sees things shaking out.

 

[Brady6]

Calling that a stretch, would be an understatement. ACanadian league guy, 4th round pick and 7th round pick. What about teams drafting in the top half of round one? They can't be that stupid, can they?

All I am saying is they are as physically talented as most players in this draft at their positions. I am not saying they are better players but they have the tools to be as good in my opinion. Also you are ignoring the situations that led to them being late round draft picks or CFL players, and only focusing on their draft or UFA status.

• Armstead left USC due to a heart condition which he ended up filing a lawsuit against the university as a result of their impact on his health. He is considered by most to be a day 1-2 talent in the draft.
• Boyce was coming of a foot injury that limited his ability to workout and made his status for the season questionable, he was also part of a very deep WR class.
• Buchanan was involved in an off field argument that resulted in a broken jaw. He lost 30lbs due to that injury and did not perform well as a senior, the year before he would have been a top 40 draft pick had he entered the draft based on reports.

 

[Brady6]

Ealy is an inch shorter, and 20lbs heavier... therefore, much more bulk that is required for DE.

It is 18lbs on a guys that are 6’4” and 6’6” that is not a lot of weight at all. They had the same number of reps on the bench, which indicates strength a lot more than weight.

 

[Brady6]

It's possible that you just completely forgot, but you posted Danny Amendola's combine numbers approximately seven thousand times over the course of the last few months (in order to compare him with people like TJ Moe, now an "intriguing prospect" for the Arena Football League).

What does that have to do with this discussion? The Amendola situation is a non-factor until training camp there is no reason to mention him other than in reference to the WR depth. For the record I compared his combine and Edelman’s combine to highlight that Edelman is the more physically gifted player, I was not even an advocate of Moe and said several times that I did not even expect him to make the squad.

Through your insane logic, Mark Harrison is a "more intriguing" prospect than Sammy Watkins. After all, Harrison has better combine numbers and has had a year of seasoning. And neither has done anything in the pros, so we have nothing to judge them on but combine numbers. Right?

Harrison is an intriguing prospect, but Watkins is better because he had better college production and performed significantly better in drills. You judge them based on scouting them, have you scouted any of these players because I have, or are you just relying on where they mock out in a drafts in the media to assess them as players?

There's so much more to football than broad jump numbers. I'm not sure why you have this fixation on the combine as the thing on which all football players should be judged. Even if you never watched them play in college (which I suspect is 100% true), here's the simple fact: Buchanan was a late 7th round pick while Ealy will be picked in the 1st round. Clearly, they are not comparable prospects anywhere except in your empty skull.

First, I am not sure why you are being such a douchebag but it is unnecessary, you referring to my skull as being empty is rude and offensive. Second, you talk about being more to football but it seems to me that you base your opinion on a player on where they are selected in the draft. The reality is it is likely you know minimal to nothing about Kony Ealy but you believe because he is mocked as a first round pick he is a better player than Buchanan is. Dennard was a seventh round pick in 2012 and Wilson was a second round pick, who is the better player?

 

[primetime]

The Amendola thing was entirely in response to your claim that you don't care about combine statistics when judging veteran players.

I judge them based on having watched them play on Saturdays in college and what I've read about them. I don't "scout them" because I have a real job that I get paid for and don't have time to "scout" players as a hobby.

Dennard was a 7th round pick because he was arrested for punching a cop a few weeks before the draft, but was mocked consistently as a late 1st to early 2nd rounder and has performed like one. Wilson was a 2nd round pick against all consensus, and not at all surprisingly he has not worked out. Why would you pick that terrible example?

 

[Brady6]

The Amendola thing was entirely in response to your claim that you don't care about combine statistics when judging veteran players.

I judge them based on having watched them play on Saturdays in college and what I've read about them. I don't "scout them" because I have a real job that I get paid for and don't have time to "scout" players as a hobby.

Dennard was a 7th round pick because he was arrested for punching a cop a few weeks before the draft, but was mocked consistently as a late 1st to early 2nd rounder and has performed like one. Wilson was a 2nd round pick against all consensus, and not at all surprisingly he has not worked out. Why would you pick that terrible example?

I never said combine numbers do not matter, I think that anytime you are talking about a professional athlete their athletic metrics matter that is as if saying a bus drivers driving record does not matter. Amendola as I said has NOTHING to do with this discussion and it is beyond me why you would bring it up, it is also petty that you are holding onto something we debated two months ago and letting it influence this discussion. I do not hold things against you from months ago and bring them up so I would appreciate the same from you.

Michael Buchanan fell to the seventh round because he was involved in an argument off the field that resulted in him breaking his jaw, he was mocked as a third round draft pick leading up to the draft so that applies. The point of the Tavon comparison was to show that just because a player is drafted somewhere does not determine their level of talent. Dennard has been more effective in his career than a number of top CBs taken in that draft, and in years past, we have seen the same thing. I would not put too much stock in where a player is mocked by Mel Kiper Jr.

 

[DaBruinz]

I fully agree with your thoughts on Kline here. There's a possibility that we may already have an interior OL replacement from the Scarnecchia pipeline. Actually, I am fully expecting him to make the team at the very least and be one of our 8-9 OL for the 53 man roster.

Solder
Mankins
Connelly
Cannon
Vollmer
Wendell
Kline

That's 7 right off the bat, with Cannon having the capacity to play both tackle and guard. Ditto for Mankins, although only really in dire need situations. That would give us 3 tackles if you count Cannon, and 4 interior positions. The more one looks at it, the higher there may be a possibility that we could even fill a tackle position as opposed to the expected IOL. Obviously, that depends on whether or not both of Connelly/Wendell will be staying on and starting, and how Belichick sees things shaking out.

The Pats also have Chris Barker who spent the entire year on the roster last year who is supposedly working out at Center. Then they have Jordan Devey and R.J. Mattes who are OTs. Devey spent last season on the IR. Mattes was on the practice squad.

I'll be flat out honest. I want whomever the Pats add to be able to beat out Wendell and Connolly so the Pats get rid of, arguably, the weakest links on the O-line.

 

[RayClay]

The Pats also have Chris Barker who spent the entire year on the roster last year who is supposedly working out at Center. Then they have Jordan Devey and R.J. Mattes who are OTs. Devey spent last season on the IR. Mattes was on the practice squad.

I'll be flat out honest. I want whomever the Pats add to be able to beat out Wendell and Connolly so the Pats get rid of, arguably, the weakest links on the O-line.

Braxton Cave too. I also wonder how good/far along these center possibilities are. Doesn't seem to really be a dominant center prospect out there, so the question is how much impact these draft picks can have short term compared to the three (Barker, Braxton Connolly) in the system.

I don't think Connolly should be dismissed, he's not Wendell and did a decent job at center when asked. Most of the centers were rated 2/3 to 7th round and if they float up from there it's not because they somehow improved in the off season.

Outside of a top center, which there isn't in this draft, there's likely to be a long adjustment period for a draftee.

Just saying, it's not a truism that every unproven draftee is preferable to a vet who knows the system. If they're going to draft a center, it might be a value pick with a transition period.

 

[Brady6]

Braxton Cave too. I also wonder how good/far along these center possibilities are. Doesn't seem to really be a dominant center prospect out there, so the question is how much impact these draft picks can have short term compared to the three (Barker, Braxton Connolly) in the system.

I don't think Connolly should be dismissed, he's not Wendell and did a decent job at center when asked. Most of the centers were rated 2/3 to 7th round and if they float up from there it's not because they somehow improved in the off season.

Outside of a top center, which there isn't in this draft, there's likely to be a long adjustment period for a draftee.

Just saying, it's not a truism that every unproven draftee is preferable to a vet who knows the system. If they're going to draft a center, it might be a value pick with a transition period.

Braxton Cave is an interesting prospect in my opinion. He was ranked as the fifth best OC in the 2013 draft and projected as a high as a fourth round pick, he struggled at the senior bowl and that really hurt him causing him to slip to UDFA. He was a Rimington Trophy finalist as a senior at Notre Dame and started 35/48 career games.

Athletically he matches up favorably to the top OC in this year’s draft class Richburg.

Weston Richburg
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6033
Weight: 298
40 Yard Dash: 5.10
20 Yard Dash:
10 Yard Dash:
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 08'10"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.63
3-Cone Drill: 7.93

Braxton Cave
Combine Invite: Yes
Height: 6032
Weight: 303
40 Yard Dash: 5.30
20 Yard Dash: 3.01
10 Yard Dash: 1.87
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 32
Vertical Jump: 25 1/2
Broad Jump: 08'02"
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.71
3-Cone Drill: 7.81

I am not sure if the combine numbers matter much but maybe he can be developed into a starting center at some point in the future.

 

[Ring 6]

Ealy is an inch shorter, and 20lbs heavier... therefore, much more bulk that is required for DE.

Its been a few years since bulk was in the job description for a Patriots DE.