16 Years ago today

[RobertWeathers]

Add Yaz and I'm with you...of course, there is the small matter that the Sawx never won a Championship with Yaz, unlike the others...but I'm willing to forgive him for that...the Curse and all that...

Loved Yaz but he's not in that class.

I'd put Papi and Pedro ahead of him and those guys are still not Bird, Rus, Orr or Brady company.

 

[OhExaulted1]

yeah but 2 of those are bullsh!t.

Yup. That SB title and down to the wire AFCCG were total ********. When Oh Lord will we get a good owner.

The loss of pick #29 in the 2016 draft totally and completely outweighs anything he's ever done. Gotcha.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yup. That SB title and down to the wire AFCCG were total ********. When Oh Lord will we get a good owner.

The loss of pick #29 in the 2016 draft totally and completely outweighs anything he's ever done. Gotcha.

I think he meant the two of the three #1 picks taken away.

 

[SLGDEV]

Odd, never heard of anyone getting shorter over time...

We all do! It is a thinning of the material between the discs of the spine. I used to be 5'10"". I am now 5'8 1/2". My wife went from 5'3" to 5'2".

 

[tuckeverlasting]

I think he meant the two of the three #1 picks taken away.

yeah... the one for bb i endorse

 

[RobertWeathers]

Either Mark Wheeler, Dave Wohlabaugh or Scott Zolak

Wheeler was a FA acquisition. I think Wohl

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Loved Yaz but he's not in that class.

I'd put Papi and Pedro ahead of him and those guys are still not Bird, Rus, Orr or Brady company.

Without getting into a discussion of Papi and Pedro, after giving it some thought, I'm changing my view and agreeing with your point.

In the final analysis, we judge true greatness by championships and by how a player helps other players to be their best.

Brady both for all time at his position and for championships delivered is in a class by himself.

Bird, Orr and Russell have one big thing in common: they all made the people around them better and helped build Champions. However, of the three, only Russell is in the top ten for any of the major stats (Rebounds) by which we judge a great in his sport. Yet, year in and year out, these three were recognized as among the most valuable to play their games.

I watched Bird play a lot. He was fortunate to have a great group around him (DJ, McH et al), but they all played better when he was on the court.

I didn't see Orr as often, but it's clear that he was the spark that lit the fire on those championship teams.

Russell and Chamberlain defined an era in their sport...'nuff said.

Yaz put up great numbers (#9 all time in both hits and total bases, #13 in RBI's). But he played during the Sawx era of "25 players, 25 taxis to the ballpark." Don't get me wrong. I loved to watch Yaz play and was at Fenway for a couple of his milestones; he deserves to be in Cooperstown. But, otherwise, yeah, you're right.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Without getting into a discussion of Papi and Pedro, after giving it some thought, I'm changing my view and agreeing with your point.

In the final analysis, we judge true greatness by championships and by how a player helps other players to be their best.

Brady both for all time at his position and for championships delivered is in a class by himself.

Bird, Orr and Russell have one big thing in common: they all made the people around them better and helped build Champions. However, of the three, only Russell is in the top ten for any of the major stats (Rebounds) by which we judge a great in his sport. Yet, year in and year out, these three were recognized as among the most valuable to play their games.

I watched Bird play a lot. He was fortunate to have a great group around him (DJ, McH et al), but they all played better when he was on the court.

I didn't see Orr as often, but it's clear that he was the spark that lit the fire on those championship teams.

Russell and Chamberlain defined an era in their sport...'nuff said.

Yaz put up great numbers (#9 all time in both hits and total bases, #13 in RBI's). But he played during the Sawx era of "25 players, 25 taxis to the ballpark." Don't get me wrong. I loved to watch Yaz play and was at Fenway for a couple of his milestones; he deserves to be in Cooperstown. But, otherwise, yeah, you're right.

Right. That's why I can't put Ted Williams in the Bird, Rus, Orr, TB12 catagory either.

Greatest hitter who ever lived but need the bling....

 

[oldrover]

I'd put Papi in there... he basically singlehandedly won an ALCS and a WS... plus 3 rings... and he's got the stars. Plus he dropped an f-bomb for Boston. That has to count for something.

 

[Gumby]

"In 1999, the Patriots lost linebacker Todd Collins, punter Tom Tupa, defensive tackle Mark Wheeler and offensive lineman Dave Wohlabaugh in free agency. As a result, they were awarded four compensatory picks: Nos. 127, 199, 201 and 239. Because it's a formula, you can't equate an exact one-for-one in terms of the specific lost free agent who netted the 199th pick. For example, you can't just say it was Tupa who yielded the 199th pick. But now, you've got a new trivia question at your disposal: Which four free agents did the Patriots lose in 1999 who helped them draft Brady with a compensatory pick in 2000?"

Read more at: Tom Brady Became Patriots’ Compensatory Pick in 2000 Due to Loss of Four Free Agents

Well, it seems clear to me that it is about 65-35 % either Tupa or Collins.

Two of the spots are divergently away from the others (127 and 239). Since a large part of the formula is $s paid and then i believe Games Started plays a role too; we can use that data to narrow it down. I think it is clear that a starting quality center is the most valuable of the four FAs and got paid that way. Wheeler was a JAG and obviously the 4th guy. Salary info for 1999 is a little tough but from what i can find see quotes below):

127: Wohlabaugh, Browns, $3.75m avg, ~$8m cash (1999), 16 GS.
199: Tupa, Jesters, $1M cap (1999), $2.2m cash (1999), $6.1m-3yr deal; 16 GS.
201: Collins, Rams, $1.6m avg, 4yr $6.4m, 1999 Cash: ?1.8 to 2.4m; 13 GS, 16 G played.
239: Wheeler, Philly, ?.?? $; 0 GS, 13 G played; retired after 1999 season.

So, my money is on Tupa.
The DELICIOUS IRONY of this is, of course, that it was (most likely if you will) a COMP from the JESTERS that gave us TB!!!!

The Browns agreed to terms with New England's Dave Wohlabaugh, giving him a seven-year deal worth $26.25 million, including a $5 million signing bonus.

Wohlabaugh's $3.75 million per season average is tops among league centers -- topping the deal signed a day earlier by Wally Williams with New Orleans ($3.7 mil lion) and last year by Kevin Mawae with the Jets ($3.6 million). Wohlabaugh's contract also is better than perennial Pro Bowler Dermontti Dawson of Pittsburgh -- and Wohlabaugh has not been to a Pro Bowl in any of his four sea sons. …

SUNDAY, FEBUARY 21, 1999

By TONY GROSSI
PLAIN DEALER REPORTER

When Brecksville’s Tom Tupa had to decide between playing for his hometown Browns or moving on to the New York Jets, the free agent punter-quarterback chose to rejoin Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick.
. . . .
If you compare the contract Tupa got from the Jets compared to the one the Browns gave Chris Gardocki, you would understand how Tupa turned his back on the Browns. Tupa’s deal was $6.1 million over four years, an average of $1.525 million annually. Gardocki’s deal was $6 million over five years, an average of $1.2 million.

But the fine print reveals a much greater difference.

Tupa received a $1.8 million dollar signing bonus. Plus, the Jets guaranteed his base salaries for 1999 ($400,000) and 2000 ($1.15 million), in addition to a partial guarantee of $350,000 in his third year.

In other words, $3.7 million of the $6.1 million total is guaranteed – unheard of for a punter.
. . . .
Why would the Jets guarantee so much of the contract?

Tupa said Parcells intends to use him as the teams No. 2 quarterback on game days. That enables Parcells to save a roster spot – and salary – for another position.

fox sports Todd Collins 2000: Salary $1,010,000

Salary cap notes by IanWhetstone:
"Kevin Mannix, Boston Herald: Collins, who lost his starting job to TedyBruschi, signed a four-year contract with the Rams that is worth $6.4 million, including a $1.4 million signing bonus."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Right. That's why I can't put Ted Williams in the Bird, Rus, Orr, TB12 catagory either.

Greatest hitter who ever lived but need the bling....

Williams is an interesting guy. He said he wanted to be remembered as the "greatest hitter" ever, not the "greatest ball player" ever. There's a difference. The choice of words was, most now believe, deliberate.

Williams invented the nine square view of the strike zone and transformed how we think about hitting. In many ways, all of the "hitting science" of today is a footnote to how Williams thought about it. But he was always about himself and not about the team...and he made no bones about it, right down to not tipping his cap to the fans at the end. You can argue that the Sox culture of "25 players, 25 taxis" began with him. But, unlike others, he walked the walk and kept himself in the lineup when he could have risked the last 0.400 in ML history.

I admire him for his honesty, unlike an A-rod or a P Manning who say it's about the team, but who behave like it's always about him and him alone.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'd put Papi in there... he basically singlehandedly won an ALCS and a WS... plus 3 rings... and he's got the stars. Plus he dropped an f-bomb for Boston. That has to count for something.

Papi is up there no question.