Updated: Judge Tells Brady No Need To Attend 8/19 Settlement Hearing

raduray said:

In science, the agreed on premises have been validated by experimentation, observation, publication and subsequent peer review. For example, behavior described by the Ideal Gas Law is a premise that is agreed to by the scientific community.

Click to expand...

Agreed upon...hmm, why would that be necessary when dealing with "facts"?

There is a whole sub-discipline of philosophy called epistemology that is dedicated to these questions.

Getting back to Gödel. There are two parts to his Incompleteness Theorem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gödel

In 1931 and while still in Vienna, Gödel published his incompleteness theorems in Über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der "Principia Mathematica" und verwandter Systeme (called in English "On Formally Undecidable Propositions of "Principia Mathematica" and Related Systems"). In that article, he proved for any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe the arithmetic of the natural numbers (e.g. the Peano axioms or Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice), that:

1. If the system is consistent, it cannot be complete.
2. The consistency of the axioms cannot be proven within the system

These theorems ended a half-century of attempts, beginning with the work of Frege and culminating in Principia Mathematica and Hilbert's formalism, to find a set of axioms sufficient for all mathematics.

Click to expand...

Hoodie said:

It's possible we won't get a decision tomorrow right? They agree the Judge would make a decision before Sept 4 so technically he has until then to decide. But it would be nice to have this O.V.E.R.

Click to expand...

i hope berman rules quickly.
cant take the anticipation...

Hoodie said:

It's possible we won't get a decision tomorrow right? They agree the Judge would make a decision before Sept 4 so technically he has until then to decide. But it would be nice to have this O.V.E.R.

Click to expand...

I'd be surprised as hell if we got a decision tomorrow. Tomorrow will be oral arguments. Dunno if there will be any final briefs after that. And the judge has to actually write his decision.

As for Sept 4th, nothing binds the judge to that. He may have agreed to the expedited hearing/briefing schedule, but that does not obligate him to render a decision by Sept 4th.

I'm thinking Friday. Berman wants to get this bag-o-poop of a docket off his bench.

The Brandon Five said:

Agreed upon...hmm, why would that be necessary when dealing with "facts"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gödel

Click to expand...

That was kind of my point - that the rational world does not debate the IGL. You have mediots saying the so-called ideal gas law derisively while asserting that Brady did something to those balls. How do you deal with that? They categorically have rejected science. They have rejected reason. They have rejected the fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts/observations of basic physics.

You could argue that they BELIEVE Tom Brady and the Patriots are Cheaters - so that is their lynchpin of Faith underlying all the assertions. However, many of us educated in science/engineering find the foundational elements of the IGL to be far more convincing and reject the Belief that Brady and/or the Patriots are cheaters. So, we cannot agree with their fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts.

The distinction is that the IGL fundamentals are more provably/reasonably correct than the Cheaters dogma. There is far less counterargument against the IGL explanation than there is about the Cheaters accusations. Therefore, a reasonable person would have to say that the IGL more probably than not explains the reality better than the Cheaters accusation does.

For the Cheaters clan, there is ONLY ONE explanation. Tom Brady Cheated.

For the Science clan, there are MULTIPLE FEASIBLE explanations. The Ideal Gas Law. Poor procedures for recording the ball pressures. Imperfect gauge equipment. Independent nefarious action by the equipment staff. Conspiracy by other competitors. Lying about what really happened.

If the punishment was hanging by the neck until dead (extreme) and the decision was in your hands, what would you do? I wonder how many of the screaming idiots would be willing to hang a man on this evidence. Actually, I think I'd be depressed by the depravity of humanity if I found out the answer.

JJC said:

That was kind of my point - that the rational world does not debate the IGL. You have mediots saying the so-called ideal gas law derisively while asserting that Brady did something to those balls. How do you deal with that? They categorically have rejected science. They have rejected reason. They have rejected the fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts/observations of basic physics.

You could argue that they BELIEVE Tom Brady and the Patriots are Cheaters - so that is their lynchpin of Faith underlying all the assertions. However, many of us educated in science/engineering find the foundational elements of the IGL to be far more convincing and reject the Belief that Brady and/or the Patriots are cheaters. So, we cannot agree with their fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts.

The distinction is that the IGL fundamentals are more provably/reasonably correct than the Cheaters dogma. There is far less counterargument against the IGL explanation than there is about the Cheaters accusations. Therefore, a reasonable person would have to say that the IGL more probably than not explains the reality better than the Cheaters accusation does.

For the Cheaters clan, there is ONLY ONE explanation. Tom Brady Cheated.

For the Science clan, there are MULTIPLE FEASIBLE explanations. The Ideal Gas Law. Poor procedures for recording the ball pressures. Imperfect gauge equipment. Independent nefarious action by the equipment staff. Conspiracy by other competitors. Lying about what really happened.

If the punishment was hanging by the neck until dead (extreme) and the decision was in your hands, what would you do? I wonder how many of the screaming idiots would be willing to hang a man on this evidence. Actually, I think I'd be depressed by the depravity of humanity if I found out the answer.

Click to expand...

I think you are getting at the difference between scientific knowledge and historical knowledge. Science can be verified by direct observation. That is the real reason that the IGL is not an arguable idea any more. If Ted Wells really thinks that it is "just a theory", I would ask him if he has ever flown on a jet airliner. When he did, was he uncertain of the whether it could fly? I mean, this stuff is just a "theory"!

raduray said:

One would think he would be sensitive to that at this point.

Click to expand...

He works for ESPN.

Based on the rumors of the NFL's demands, my guess is they either:

• Know that or are delusional that there is no way Judge Berman is going to rule against them.
• Don't really care if they win or lose, but want to show the owners that they are not only going to give up power, but demand more.
• Just are a bunch of idiots.

I am going with one or two along with three.

It is ridiculous that the NFL is asking for more than they had before this went to court and want the NFLPA to concede more power to them.

If I was Goodell, I would be worried that not only will Judge Berman decide that he violated the CBA in this case, but look back at court rulings against him in the Bountygate, Ray Rice, and Adrian Peterson incidents and determine that these cases show that Goodell and the commissioner's office is incapable of have a fair appeals process and strip him of his appeals power.

I don't know if Judge Berman is an activist judge or not. But if he is, that is a real risk for the NFL. Judge Berman could strip Goodell of his power to hear appeals. He can look to the fact that in both on the field infractions and substance abuse cases, the NFL and NFLPA jointly appoint arbitrators that are paid by both parties to be fair and impartial. He could determine that since that is a policy that works in other areas that he could force the NFL to adopt that policy for code of conduct infractions.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

Tom PelisseroVerified account‏@TomPelissero
With settlement talks going nowhere, Tom Brady has changed his mind and now is expected to rejoin #Patriots tomorrow, per sources.

Tom PelisseroVerified account‏@TomPelissero
Brady was in New York for settlement talks today ordered by Judge Berman. "No progress," source said, so he's not staying for hearing.

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer 21s22 seconds ago
Brady's plan to attend tomorrow, of course, was with the hope that today's settlement talks would go somewhere. It appears they haven't.

Jeff Howe ‏@jeffphowe 5m5 minutes ago
Tom Brady had never fully committed one way or the other to attending tomorrow's meeting. Now getting the impression he won't.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the 411. Means I won't have to clear my schedule again like I did last week to be the eyes and ears of the Forum in the media pen outside the Courthouse. I'll follow this week's proceedings here, like everyone else.

BTW: there are a lot of camera operators and producers who are very happy that they won't have to spend 6--10 hours standing in the sun tomorrow, waiting for a 15 second glimpse of Brady.

robertweathers said:

I'm thinking Friday. Berman wants to get this bag-o-poop of a docket off his bench.

Click to expand...

Believe it or don't, I heard Justice Berman actual made a ruling today. Here is a secret video that I was able to obtain showing Roger Goodell making his argument to the Justice, with Berman immediately following up with his ruling.

JJC said:

That was kind of my point - that the rational world does not debate the IGL. You have mediots saying the so-called ideal gas law derisively while asserting that Brady did something to those balls. How do you deal with that? They categorically have rejected science. They have rejected reason. They have rejected the fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts/observations of basic physics.

You could argue that they BELIEVE Tom Brady and the Patriots are Cheaters - so that is their lynchpin of Faith underlying all the assertions. However, many of us educated in science/engineering find the foundational elements of the IGL to be far more convincing and reject the Belief that Brady and/or the Patriots are cheaters. So, we cannot agree with their fundamental definitions/assumptions/facts.

The distinction is that the IGL fundamentals are more provably/reasonably correct than the Cheaters dogma. There is far less counterargument against the IGL explanation than there is about the Cheaters accusations. Therefore, a reasonable person would have to say that the IGL more probably than not explains the reality better than the Cheaters accusation does.

For the Cheaters clan, there is ONLY ONE explanation. Tom Brady Cheated.

For the Science clan, there are MULTIPLE FEASIBLE explanations. The Ideal Gas Law. Poor procedures for recording the ball pressures. Imperfect gauge equipment. Independent nefarious action by the equipment staff. Conspiracy by other competitors. Lying about what really happened.

If the punishment was hanging by the neck until dead (extreme) and the decision was in your hands, what would you do? I wonder how many of the screaming idiots would be willing to hang a man on this evidence. Actually, I think I'd be depressed by the depravity of humanity if I found out the answer.

Click to expand...

The people that think Brady is guilty believe the IGL, they just choose a different set of assumptions than we do. IMO there is better evidence to choose assumptions about temperatures, and timing of the check, and gauge used that favor no tampering. However, the truth is not positively known. We cannot go back in time and experimentally redo the situation to remove all doubt.

It just doesn't do any good to straw an your opponents with "they don't believe in science"

Bobsyouruncle said:

It just doesn't do any good to straw an your opponents with "they don't believe in science"

Click to expand...

I know, because once they concede on the science explaining it, they say something brilliant like, "so why did he destroy his phone? Gotcha!"

How can you argue that logic?

<insert Captain Picard face palm here>

JMC00 said:

Not sure why people are buying Schefter about the 1 game thing. Don't think Zolak would have called the 2-6 douche show if he had an unreliable source.

Click to expand...

I'm sure he's got about as good of a source as you can get in this situation.

Tom Brady.

karguy85 said:

Schefter just said on Sportscenter that Brady was willing to accept a partial suspension for obstruction only with no admission of guilt, the the NFL was not interested in that concession. That won't look good to Berman. I've never heard of a party being forced to admit guilt as part of a settlement...

Click to expand...

With all due respect, are you sure you heard this correctly? It hasn't been picked up anywhere else and I would have thought this would have spread like wildfire.

Didn't haventime to read the whole thread. Is there going to be a Twitter feed for tomorrow?

After all the antics of the nfl and the concessions that Brady is willing to accept with the nfl not budging at all. I don't want Brady to concede anything at this point. I would rather he serve four games than give them anything. Afterwards file a defamation suit.

Patriot Missile said:

Didn't haventime to read the whole thread. Is there going to be a Twitter feed for tomorrow?

Click to expand...

No, it's all closed off tomorrow.

It's funny that Brady is viewed as non cooperative when he has seemingly offered to give up a lot more and the NFL is digging in say "guilt and suspension, accept wells report, or we're sticking our di---fingers in our ears"

strngplyr said:

No, it's all closed off tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Darn. That was fun.

Patriot Missile said:

Didn't haventime to read the whole thread. Is there going to be a Twitter feed for tomorrow?

Click to expand...

My understanding is that there are no electronic devices allowed in the courtroom. The guy doing live tweeting was the NYDN regular courthouse reporter and he had access to a computer hard wired to network. He got busted and kicked out, so I suspect he won't be doing it again. I imagine reporters will be scribbling notes and then passing them out periodically to be reported on by their media partners gathered outside.