Brandon Lafell

[supafly]

Benjamin can play. Cotchery is a WR3/WR4, just as LaFell is, although his age is an issue going forward. Carolina has

Budding WR1 (Benjamin)
WR3/WR4 (Cotchery)
WR4 (Avant)
TE1 (Olsen)

If they'd have kept Smith, and their RBs could stay healthy, they'd be in great position in that division, and would be a real threat in the playoffs. They're in first place even now.

Sometimes these offseason stories end up being so insanely overblown, much like the demise of the Baltimore Ravens with all of their lost free agents, the supposedly horrible OL that Denver was going to field for Peyton Manning this year, and the Panthers not being able to field any capable wide receivers.

I'd have to imagine that Carolina will address the position again in the offseason, but I think they've done a much better job than anyone expected so far.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I have to think AzPatsFan would like to have that one back.



I agree that the SB wins aren't relevant with regards to the TEs. My point was really that it's not relevant about the WRs, either, yet people around here use that argument for Moss, Welker, Lloyd, the deep game in general, the overall offensive philosophy, etc...



And here you make my point. The Patriots had, quite possibly, the greatest team in NFL history in 2007. Yet, because a significantly injured team came up less than 3 minutes short of 19-0, the tag line is "we didn't win any SBs with him". It's stupid.

I stand by my empirically derived observational thesis. It is just unconventional thinking to almost everyone.

But NOT to Bill Belichick.

Why else did he spend a pair of #1s and a #2 and a #4 on TEs?
Why did he base an Offense on 2 TEs?
Why did he pay uncharacteristically and grant long term contracts to lock them up?
Why did he trade a Probowl Guard to re-secure his 2 TEs?

Nonsense to your Superbowl argument. If we had Gronk in 2011, we would probably have won that SuperBowl, as well. Arguments based upon hypotheticals prove nothing.

Reality is that the greatest Coach of the Century, invested in TEs not WRs. I already listed what are equivalent in Gronk & Megatron; and Gronk can ALSO do, that Megatron can't ever do.

I prefer to look at what is; and what people actually do, rather than what people merely say. I say Open your eyes.

 

[mgteich]

Benjamin can play. Cotchery is a WR3/WR4, just as LaFell is, although his age is an issue going forward. Carolina has

Budding WR1 (Benjamin)
WR3/WR4 (Cotchery)
WR4 (Avant)
TE1 (Olsen)

If they'd have kept Smith, and their RBs could stay healthy, they'd be in great position in that division, and would be a real threat in the playoffs. They're in first place even now.

I agree that it has worked out better for CAR at WR than anyone could have imagined. LaFell got $3M a year, and Smith got more. CAR's management decided to risk any hopes of going far in this year's playoffs on being able to draft an immediate replacement for Steve Smith, and being able to find a inexpensive replacement for LaFell. They rolled the dice and have done well.

The bottom line is they were not willing to pay Lafell or Smith.

 

[Deus Irae]

I stand by my empirically derived observational thesis. It is just unconventional thinking to almost everyone.

But NOT to Bill Belichick.

Why else did he spend a pair of #1s and a #2 and a #4 on TEs?
Why did he base an Offense on 2 TEs?
Why did he pay uncharacteristically and grant long term contracts to lock them up?
Why did he trade a Probowl Guard to re-secure his 2 TEs?

Nonsense to your Superbowl argument. If we had Gronk in 2011, we would probably have won that SuperBowl, as well. Arguments based upon hypotheticals prove nothing.

Reality is that the greatest Coach of the Century, invested in TEs not WRs. I already listed what are equivalent in Gronk & Megatron; and Gronk can ALSO do, that Megatron can't ever do.

I prefer to look at what is; and what people actually do, rather than what people merely say. I say Open your eyes.

When your post is this entirely insane, further discourse is not worthwhile.

 

[strngplyr]

Sometimes these offseason stories end up being so insanely overblown, much like the demise of the Baltimore Ravens with all of their lost free agents, the supposedly horrible OL that Denver was going to field for Peyton Manning this year, and the Panthers not being able to field any capable wide receivers.

I'd have to imagine that Carolina will address the position again in the offseason, but I think they've done a much better job than anyone expected so far.

Well, lets be honest... the Ravens were not good in 2013 with their exodus of defensive players. They are mediocire in 2014 at best. Flacco had a great game where nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of the teams passing statistics have come from.

Peyton's OL has NOT been great or even close to great, what has been outstanding is Peyton's release time. He knows the internal clock is ticking, and even at his age he is still capable of getting the ball out as fast as any QB to ever play in the league. Sunday showed that the Broncos' "great offensive line" isn't all that great. They performed far worse than ours did (and lets be honest, our line didn't perform outstanding against either the Bills or Bengals, much of that is on Tom getting it out quick and on Josh attempting to balance the running game with the passing game) against what is supposed to be a relatively equal defensive front to the Bills, and not only that, the Jets rushed 3 and dropped 8, while still getting pressure, rather often from what I've read on their forums. The Bills brought 4 or more on just about every snap.

And Carolina's receivers, well, they are what they are, they have a future star, at least it appears that way, in Benjamin, but their passing game is nothing to write home about. They're ranked 12th in passing offense but there are a pair of teams who have only played 5 games currently ranked ahead of them.

The Carolina receivers story is probably the most overblown, as they have shown they can adapt, but many of the other "extreme" stories are actually holding true. Carolina may just boast a simple system for WRs as their current group of JAGs + Benjamin is performing quite well, like in a real offense LaFell is on pace for a career year, despite posting 0 stats in the first 2 weeks of the season.

TLDR; I don't think Carolina's WR spot story of the offseason was overblown at all. The spot still sucks, they're just running a basic system to cover up deficiencies and signed a bunch of intelligent veterans as 1 year stop gaps to support their stud rookie, where they look like they nailed it in the draft.

In 2015 you can probably bet that 3 of the 4 top receiver spots will see a new face.

 

[RIpats88]

some of you are way too obsessed with the notion of "wide receiver" versus "pass catcher" we might not have a WR1 like the lions have. but we do have one of the TOP pass catches in the league in Rob Gronkowski.

just so happens he is a tight end.

 

[Deus Irae]

some of you are way too obsessed with the notion of "wide receiver" versus "pass catcher" we might not have a WR1 like the lions have. but we do have one of the TOP pass catches in the league in Rob Gronkowski.

just so happens he is a tight end.

Same logic, amplified:

"We may not have a top QB, but we've got a great right tackle!"

 

[RIpats88]

Same logic, amplified:

"We may not have a top QB, but we've got a great right tackle!"

not really...Gronkowski catches passes and touchdowns...same thing a wide receiver does. and he's pretty dominant at it. stats show he is one of the most dominant pass catchers in the league. just happens he is a tight end and not a WR

unless you are suggesting a Right tackle can do the same things as a quarterback.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't see the correlation of a HOF #1WR to success any more than any other position.
Of course every team in the league would want to have Megatron and having him would make them better, but calling it a prerequisite of winning is silly. I know that chicks dig the longball but flash and winning are not the same thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

not really...Gronkowski catches passes and touchdowns...same thing a wide receiver does. and he's pretty dominant at it. stats show he is one of the most dominant pass catchers in the league. just happens he is a tight end and not a WR

unless you are suggesting a Right tackle can do the same things as a quarterback.

Passes don't get completed without right tackles.

Once you start trying to pretend that different positions are the same, you bring in the illogic. I could have just used a RB for the example (Our WRs and TEs suck, but we've got a great receiving RB, so that's the same thing) but, as I noted in my post, I wanted to amplify the point.

 

[Danger Zone]

When your post is this entirely insane, further discourse is not worthwhile.

Deus-speak for: I feel uncomfortable with having to hold an actual adult conversation.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Passes don't get completed without right tackles.

Once you start trying to pretend that different positions are the same, you bring in the illogic. I could have just used a RB for the example (Our WRs and TEs suck, but we've got a great receiving RB, so that's the same thing) but, as I noted in my post, I wanted to amplify the point.

The RIPats is right. "Pass Catcher" is the job description, and is what you want.

As I've said before, the Patriots DO have a #1 "Pass Catcher" just like Megatron, in his effect on distorting the Defensive pass coverage, and thus liberating the rest of the "pass catchers".

Analyze. What does a #1 WR like Megatron DO, that #1 TE Gronk does NOT do? Please be specific, as you are usually a very fine analyst.

What does Gronk also do, in addition, that Megatron does not, and can not, do? Does Belichick, ever the realist, recognize the value and draft and pay accordingly, for a top TE versus a top WR?

Euclid said over 2500 years ago: "Things that are equal to a third thing, are equal to each other". You are just being too conventional in your thinking.

PS: Gayle Sayers was a great HB. Jim Brown was a great FB. They are both "runners" who advance the ball by rushing. Is one different, and better than the other? Can he DO things, in addition, that the other could not do? Certainly.

 

[supafly]

Well, lets be honest... the Ravens were not good in 2013 with their exodus of defensive players. They are mediocire in 2014 at best. Flacco had a great game where nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of the teams passing statistics have come from.

Peyton's OL has NOT been great or even close to great, what has been outstanding is Peyton's release time. He knows the internal clock is ticking, and even at his age he is still capable of getting the ball out as fast as any QB to ever play in the league. Sunday showed that the Broncos' "great offensive line" isn't all that great. They performed far worse than ours did (and lets be honest, our line didn't perform outstanding against either the Bills or Bengals, much of that is on Tom getting it out quick and on Josh attempting to balance the running game with the passing game) against what is supposed to be a relatively equal defensive front to the Bills, and not only that, the Jets rushed 3 and dropped 8, while still getting pressure, rather often from what I've read on their forums. The Bills brought 4 or more on just about every snap.

And Carolina's receivers, well, they are what they are, they have a future star, at least it appears that way, in Benjamin, but their passing game is nothing to write home about. They're ranked 12th in passing offense but there are a pair of teams who have only played 5 games currently ranked ahead of them.

The Carolina receivers story is probably the most overblown, as they have shown they can adapt, but many of the other "extreme" stories are actually holding true. Carolina may just boast a simple system for WRs as their current group of JAGs + Benjamin is performing quite well, like in a real offense LaFell is on pace for a career year, despite posting 0 stats in the first 2 weeks of the season.

TLDR; I don't think Carolina's WR spot story of the offseason was overblown at all. The spot still sucks, they're just running a basic system to cover up deficiencies and signed a bunch of intelligent veterans as 1 year stop gaps to support their stud rookie, where they look like they nailed it in the draft.

In 2015 you can probably bet that 3 of the 4 top receiver spots will see a new face.

1) I would say competing for a playoff spot in week #17 last year, improving in many defensive categories and starting off 4-2 this year is placing them on the same, if not better plane than their SB winning season. If you actually look and see this as a "major demise" (which was what was predicted the entire offseason after they won the SB) then I'm not sure what else to say?

The truth is that they are NEVER that good at an average of 9-7 or 10-6 finishes for the season, but they are consistent for a postseason spot and often are a tough out when you play them. How people feel that changed is beyond me? However you choose to spin the talk of their demise, it is simply not true. They aren't any different than they ever were!


2) Peyton Manning has been sacked a total of SIX times this year, which places him promptly in the "LESS than 20 club" once again. He's also on pace for another 50 TD passes and putting up insane numbers and a very good record in the process. How in the hell is he playing behind a very poor OL?

3) CAR's passing offense is top 12, with their replacing of LaFell with a much cheaper Cotchery, who is putting up identical--or even better numbers. They've also added the best rookie WR in the entire league with Benjamin, so their WR1 is better than most at the moment. As always, Greg Olson has been a staple at TE. I'd say their "cupboard is bare" opinion for receivers was greatly exaggerated--yes.

 

[Deus Irae]

The RIPats is right. "Pass Catcher" is the job description, and is what you want.

No, he's not. He's as wrong as you are. That's not a good thing. And, as I said to you earlier, your post was so insane that there's no need to continue discussing this with you.

 

[rochrist]

No. The reliance on essentially fungible stats (TDs) is a terrible measure of receivers, and is not the specific object of any receivers, WR, TE or RB.



Gronk is a TE. HE's supposed to be better at blocking. To say that he's an equivalent middle-deep threat is insane, though.




Yes, actually, it is a wonder. I'll use the Patsfans.com favorite "How many SBs has Gronk won?" as the ironclad rebuttal so many around here seem to think it is.

This team won 3 Super Bowls with the TEs being relative non-factors in the passing game (by relative, I mean compared to how the Patriots use them today, not that none of the TEs during that stretch was a help in the passing game). Hell, in 2001, the TE position produced 19 total regular season receptions.

The notion that they are worth 2 WR1s is silliness of the highest order.

They also won 3 SBs with no (by your standards) true WR1.

Also, remind us how many SBs Megatron has won, since you seem to want to apply that standard to Gronk.

 

[Deus Irae]

They also won 3 SBs with no (by your standards) true WR1.

Also, remind us how many SBs Megatron has won, since you seem to want to apply that standard to Gronk.

Read the whole thread before replying. It avoids people having to do things like this:

I agree that the SB wins aren't relevant with regards to the TEs. My point was really that it's not relevant about the WRs, either, yet people around here use that argument for Moss, Welker, Lloyd, the deep game in general, the overall offensive philosophy, etc...

[URL="http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/brandon-lafell.1112399/page-3#post-3945872"]Brandon Lafell[/URL]

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

This.

All the blather about needing elite WR completely ignores the past thirteen years of Patriots football.

Having Gronk healthy or 100% for one of those SBs and we win it. Not because of elite WR.

 

[Deus Irae]

Having Gronk healthy or 100% for one of those SBs and we win it. Not because of elite WR.

?????

Welker was an elite WR. He was the best slot WR in the NFL, and is the best slot WR in NFL history. It doesn't get much more elite than that. Also, having Brady healthy likely means a win in 2007, with Randy Moss.


This is another good example of why using a SB win as the benchmark for a TE/WR discussion is really stupid.

 

[RIpats88]

Deus...my point is that Gronk is one of the most ELITE pass catchers in the league. when he's healthy he has the SAME effect on our offense that having a #1 wide receiver would. There was a stat on ESPN a couple months ago about how he ranks up there with AJ Green, bryant, johnson etc.

he pulls 2-3 defenders with him in coverage every play...same as a wide receiver like calvin johnson or julio jones or Dez Bryant would. and he pulls in 12-15 td's on average when he plays a full season.

he might have Tight End next to his name...but hes every much the pass catcher as those wide receivers you mention.

 

[I am party]

From this week's Patriots All Access:

He's from Houston, went to LSU, and has played for the Panthers and currently plays for the Patriots, so why the Bulls hat? Just a fashion statement? Maybe a fan of MJ's Bulls?