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Matt Light comments on recent events


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The players union doesn't represent the players any more; they aren't a party in the litigation. They exist as an advisory organization only.

If the NFL wants to negotiate, it needs to go through the players named in the class action suit and their legal counsel. If the players like the offer, they can vote to re-invest the union with power to negotiate for them, and the re-certified NFLPA could accept the agreement.

That's a slightly naive and "by the book" view that assumes the power structure of the "former" NFLPA no longer exists.

Let's not kid ourselves about the distinction between what's legal and what's real and apply some common sense.

Still, I'd LIKE to believe as you do - that DeMaurice Smith no longer has any power or sway.
 
Exactly. DeMaurice Smith talks about continued negotiations. He just doesn't do it.

So in this big red herring of "the NFLPA no longer exists and can't negotiate" are we now back to recognizing that they are still a defacto bargaining unit?

“The PA can not bargain like I said,” Pitts tweeted. “The only thing that can transpire is the class lawyers can settle the case as they did in ’93 with White settlement.”

The White settlement coincidentally became the CBA.

According to Pitts and Smith, among others, the only people with the power to negotiate at this point are the parties to the suit and their attorneys. The NFLPA does not have the authority to do so. The Packers seem to be in some level of agreement with that:

Packers president and CEO Mark Murphy, a member of the NFL’s negotiating team, said recently on PFT Live that the league could resume talks pursuant to an agreement that would allow the NFLPA* to be involved without that involvement being used against the players in conjunction with the argument that decertification is a sham.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/19/foxworth-says-players-are-ready-to-talk-now/

Are you saying that those people, from both sides of the situation, are misinformed/lying?
 
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The thing is the last offer the NFL made was actually worse for the players than the previous one they (the owners) made. ...

Link please.
 
According to Pitts and Smith, among others, the only people with the power to negotiate at this point are the parties to the suit and their attorneys. The NFLPA does not have the authority to do so. The Packers seem to be in some level of agreement with that:



Foxworth says players are ready to talk now | ProFootballTalk

Are you saying that those people, from both sides of the situation, are misinformed/lying?


Having the players negotiate with legal representation is far different than litigating the case and hoping that a kindly judge is going to come to your rescue after the legal process has run its course.

While I think Negotiations likely will favor the owners - as opposed to litigation having the potential to favor the players - negotiations appear to be a much shorter path to a settlement than litigation.

You've done a great job making my point. The players ARE ready to talk.

It's what remains of the NFLPA that appears so eager to litigate.

The players and parties to the suit can settle this outside of court with a negotiated settlement. Everyone agrees.

Whether they have any true interest in that, is anyone's guess.
 
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Untrue. The owners have stated that their proposed increase in the amount taken off the top of Total Revenues was because the the amount off the top under the previous CBR was insufficient to insure that all the NFL's teams had enough after expenses to reinvest in franchise and league growth.
No. The owners have offered a proposal for a new CBA. The reasoning behind why is irrelevant. They have no obligation to give a reason, and even less to be held accountable to documenting it.

That is has been, the owners' argument.
No, it has not. They have not ARGUED any justification, they have stated they want a higher percentage. There are many reasons, it only follows that expenses are part of that. Stating so does not automatically mean they have to prove what they are.

Furthermore, your suggestion that it's not the owners' argument is a very weak equivocation, for it leads to the question of what, then, is their argument.
They require a higher % of the revenue. That is their negotiating standpoint. They have never stated that they will document a reason why.

To argue that they don't need one is weaker yet - if they don't provide a rationale, than there's no reason for the NFLPA to take their demand seriously, and no reason for the mediator to believe that they're negotiating in good faith. And while the mediator cannot dictate binding terms, there are severe consequences to being found to be negotiating in bad faith.
They are stating that they need a higher percentage. They do not have to get anyone to analyze anything and concur with that. This is your fatal flaw in your argument.
It is a negotiation. A mediator can not penalize them or say they are negotiating in bad faith when they say their business decision is that they need a higher %. They do not have to show a rationale for that, the fact that their profits are unacceptable to THEM is sufficient. No other party must concur or in the contrary tell them what they should accept for profits.


So, no, in good faith negotiations within an organization, you can't make a demand "just 'cause."
Yes you can. Good faith does not mean you have to compromise on what you need to make a deal.



Meaningless sophistry. Clearly the "give back" refers to the terms of the most recent CBA, and clearly, the most recent agreement is the logical jumping off point for negotiating the next. The owners are 100% entitled to want to change the terms however they want, which logically would lead the NFLPA to ask why the previous terms weren't working for them, and again, you don't say "Because!" in good faith negotiations.
Yes, you can.



The Packers are hardly a representative franchise for the entire NFL. After all, they're toward of the very bottom of the league in terms of revenue, and are the league's only not-for-profit franchise.
Yet they are one of the teams negotiating. Are you saying that they are irrelevant? If the current deal puts one of their franchises in the position of one bad year of inflation causing them to be in the red, then of course the entire group of owners must find that unacceptable. Even if they are in the worst shape, they are evidence the deal isnt working very well.



No. It's really not.

The league is arguing that not all of the teams are sufficiently profitable to be able to afford to reinvest in franchise growth. But on the whole, NFL team revenues have been increasing fairly rapidly.
The league believes that all of the franchises together are not profitable enough. Once again they are not ARGUING that. They have DECIDED that. That topic is not negotiable. It is not part of the CBA.


The franchises in question that need additional money to be able to afford reinvestment have been seeing shrinking margins during 5 years of huge rises in the popularity and marketability of NFL football.

If you can't even tread water in a bull market, I'd say "poorly run" doesn't even cover it.
That is irrelevant. Lets say they are poorly run. So? That does not change the fact that they need a higher percentage of the revenues to make the deal work. Are you suggesting that it would be effective for the players to say, "You aren't efficient, so thats your problem"? What would that solve. The owners position would not change, the players position would not change.
This is precisely why the request for financials is pure folly, and simple posturing.
There is nothing that could happen from financial disclosure that would make things any better.
The players would look at the financials and tell the owners they see them differently and they think the owners make too much profit. The owners position would not change a lick.
The players asked for financials because they could use it in the public opinion battle. If they really felt it was critical they would have accepted the offer for 5 years of financials turned over to independant auditors. Why did they refuse?

Likewise the players bring revenue sharing AMONG owners into the discussion because it creates the impression that something untoward is going on behind closed doors. The fact is that the owners sharing their share of the revenue amongst themselves is none of the players businss, and again, if that were on the table, it would accomplish nothing to bring the sides closer.
I am really surprised that you are being duped by these grandstanding manuevers.
 
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Having the players negotiate with legal representation is far different than litigating the case and hoping that a kindly judge is going to come to your rescue after the legal process has run its course.

While I think Negotiations likely will favor the owners - as opposed to litigation having the potential to favor the players - negotiations appear to be a much shorter path to a settlement than litigation.

You've done a great job making my point. The players ARE ready to talk.

It's what remains of the NFLPA that appears so eager to litigate.

The players and parties to the suit can settle this outside of court with a negotiated settlement. Everyone agrees.

Whether they have any true interest in that, is anyone's guess.

This would make some sense if it weren't some of the NFLPA members saying that they'd like to talk. Since Vrabel and Foxworth have said that, though, your position doesn't hold any water.
 
The Packers are hardly a representative franchise for the entire NFL. After all, they're toward of the very bottom of the league in terms of revenue, and are the league's only not-for-profit franchise.

The Packers ranked 14th in revenue and dead last in debt ratio.
 
You're starting to sound like Deus.
That is a low blow.
The point being that the owners can base their negotiation stance on whatever they want. It is a tremendous error to say that they must give a reason for where they are setting their proposal (or what the reject from the players) and then be expected to show evidence to document why they feel that way.
The same goes for the players. There has been zero talk of the players giving any accountability for how they arrive at what they feel is acceptable.
 
This would make some sense if it weren't some of the NFLPA members saying that they'd like to talk. Since Vrabel and Foxworth have said that, though, your position doesn't hold any water.

Yes - there's certainly been a lot of talking by the NFLPA* about talking

But I'm not alone in noting the "mixed messages" of players talking about their willingness to talk while the NFLPA announcing that no talks will happen before April 6th in litigation

Foxworth says players are ready to talk now | ProFootballTalk

The owners have said all week that they are ready to resume negotiations. Mixed messages, at best, have come from the players.

A report from Adam Schefter of ESPN, citing an unnamed NFLPA* source, indicated that there was “no chance” of additional talks before the April 6 hearing

Chiefs linebacker Mike Vrabel, a named plaintiff in the lawsuit but also a member of the NFLPA* Executive Committee, potentially undermined the union’s decertification effort by telling ESPN that “we” want to negotiate directly with owners like Robert Kraft, Jerry Jones, and Jerry Richardson.


Time is of the essence. With the league’s brief opposing the motion to lift the lockout due Monday, the lawyers for the two parties need to get together quickly to negotiate the terms of a re-engagement.


Either way, it’s time for action. Currently, the NFL and the NFLPA* are lined up against their respective walls like the boys and the girls at a junior-high dance. It’s time for someone to make the first tangible move.

I know you consider it a "sport" in and of itself to mock others on this board, but in this case, Florio's done a pretty good job of bolstering my point that the "talk" about "talking" by the NFLPA* has thus far been all talk and no talking... so to speak.

I think it's clear that the NFLPA* isn't going to actually go beyond their talk and the NFL will make yet another effort to get things back to the bargaining table - whether the players accept is another matter.
 
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jmt57 said:
The thing is the last offer the NFL made was actually worse for the players than the previous one they (the owners) made. ...
Link please.
Seriously? Google is your friend ... there are dozens if not hundreds of links out there backing up that statement; here are a couple that took me about 30 seconds to find. It's pretty much accepted at this point by almost anyone following the topic that the owners last proposal was not as good as the one they had made a week earlier.
Goodell's letter to players - Extra Points - Boston.com
Wrong number dialed - BostonHerald.com

Readers Digest version: in the final proposal, owners' revenue projections were much lower than historical revenue increases as well as projections by financial institutions - and would be the max the players would get. Whereas previously the players would be "trued up", those lower projections would now be the final split for the players.

Those increased revenue projections? Rather than about an historical average of about 7½-8%, they're using 4% in 2011, 4% in 2012, 2½% in 2013, and 2½% in 2014. Anything in excess of that the owners would now keep 100%. The previous proposals did not include that verbage; prior to that the numbers would be trued up the following year.
 
Yes - there's certainly been a lot of talking by the NFLPA* about talking

But I'm not alone in noting the "mixed messages" of players talking about their willingness to talk while the NFLPA announcing that no talks will happen before April 6th in litigation

Foxworth says players are ready to talk now | ProFootballTalk



I know you consider it a "sport" in and of itself to mock others on this board, but in this case, Florio's done a pretty good job of bolstering my point that the "talk" about "talking" by the NFLPA* has thus far been all talk and no talking... so to speak.

I think it's clear that the NFLPA* isn't going to actually go beyond their talk and the NFL will make yet another effort to get things back to the bargaining table - whether the players accept is another matter.

Yes, if you ignore what they've said, and you just take a wild guess at what's in their hearts and buy one unnamed source, you can come to the conclusion you have, which was that the players had made it "perfectly clear" that the NFLPA has no interest in negotiating.

Pointing out that multiple members of the NFLPA have stated a willingness to to talk is not "sport", however. It's bringing out valid information that runs counter to your theory.

Also, I don't believe I've mocked you at all in this thread.
 
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With all the expansion many leagues have some very weak sisters, including the NFL. Would Light support a contraction of 4 to 6 clubs, and the loss of say 618 football player's jobs?

I think baseball needs to shed 5-10 Teams; and the NHL could lose an entire conference. How many teams do you think the NBA should contract?

Exactly. The solution to the problem Light proposes is dropping some teams. Unfortunately this makes you lose jobs for members of your union so your answer is to tell the owners how to run their business. I understand what light is trying to say here but i don't think he is thinking about the solution to what he believes the problem is and if you think that solution is the owners taking less money and the players getting more/equal to what they get now your mistaken
 
Yes, if you ignore what they've said, and you just take a wild guess at what's in their hearts and buy one unnamed source, you can come to the conclusion you have, which was that the players had made it "perfectly clear" that the NFLPA has no interest in negotiating.

Pointing out that multiple members of the NFLPA have stated a willingness to to talk is not "sport", however. It's bringing out valid information that runs counter to your theory.

Also, I don't believe I've mocked you at all in this thread.


You've consistently stated - and disputed anyone who would contend otherwise - that the NFLPA simply want to continue to talk and negotiate.

I've consistently stated that the what the NFLPA says and does are two very different things.

Apparently you have a very difficult time accepting that, because you keep going back to the statements of the NFLPA, choosing to ignore their actions (or lack thereof).

If it makes you feel better to note the NFLPA's statements, that's great. Many of us - including Florio - recognize that the actions don't yet match the words and that the NFLPA is sending "mixed messages" as Florio said.

I give Vrabel credit for trying to jump start things between the NFLPA and owners - but as Florio also said, he's not exactly on the same page as the NFLPA legal advisors as his statements undermine the lawyers decertification effort.

I'm not sure why it's so tough for you to accept that the NFLPA's statements and actions are two very different things. Their statements on whether they think rookies should attend the draft is another excellent case study of the NFLPA talking out of both sides of their mouths.

I suppose both sides do their fair share of that, but on the matter of negotiations, the NFLPA talks about negotiating... they just don't seem interested in coming back to the bargaining table to actually do so. No one can deny that - not even you.
 
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quick question - If the union has "decertified" who is the "we" the players are talking about?. There are issues that might be in the players' favor when this goes to court, but the issue of the this sham decertification can not be in doubt.
 
Seriously? Google is your friend ... there are dozens if not hundreds of links out there backing up that statement; here are a couple that took me about 30 seconds to find. ...

Dear fact-less opinionated anonymous poster,

It was so terrifically easy yet you provided no base to judge your post beyond "some guy on a message board asserted something.

Sorry I put you out by asking you to for FACTS. I should know anything posted by an anonymous poster is true because it is obviously my responsibility to spend 30 seconds backing up your claim.
 
Talk about your mixed messages. I guess Foxworth doesn't realize absent a union there is no need for a settlement agreement since the league as we know it won't be operating as a collective anymore and there won't be any revenue sharing or salary caps or drafts or FA...just MLB with the Redskins and the Cowboys playing the role of the RedSox and Yankees. The Patriots might not be in that mix either since Kraft is on record saying that absent cost certainty and a salary cap he'd find something else to invest in...

If you like the current NFL structure (not the lockout, but the arrangements of before, where there was a league, an NFLPA, a salary cap, Draft, etc.) then you’d better pray that Domonique Foxworth is simply blowing smoke. The Ravens cornerback told Ken Murray of the Baltimore Sun that the union is cool with staying decertified forever. “We’re fine with decertifying, we’re fine with never being a union again,” Foxworth said. “That’s our complete intention. Whenever we come to a settlement, they’ll ask that we certify. [But] I don’t know that that’s what we want to do. It’s in our best interests to be an association. I don’t perceive any time in the future when we’re going to be a union again.”

Source: CBS Sports
 
Talk about your mixed messages. I guess Foxworth doesn't realize absent a union there is no need for a settlement agreement since the league as we know it won't be operating as a collective anymore and there won't be any revenue sharing or salary caps or drafts or FA...just MLB with the Redskins and the Cowboys playing the role of the RedSox and Yankees. The Patriots might not be in that mix either since Kraft is on record saying that absent cost certainty and a salary cap he'd find something else to invest in...

Hey, 99.99% of everything that comes out of the players' mouth falls into 2 categories - (1) Moronic comments that shows how ignorant and/or incompetent they are (e.g. Adrian Peterson), (2) Blindly reverberating what the union lawyers told them to say (e.g. Matt Light and Heath Evans).

In the case of Foxworth, it sounds like he's taking both and blending them together in his own unique way.
 
No. The owners have offered a proposal for a new CBA. The reasoning behind why is irrelevant. They have no obligation to give a reason, and even less to be held accountable to documenting it.


No, it has not. They have not ARGUED any justification, they have stated they want a higher percentage. There are many reasons, it only follows that expenses are part of that. Stating so does not automatically mean they have to prove what they are.


They require a higher % of the revenue. That is their negotiating standpoint. They have never stated that they will document a reason why.


They are stating that they need a higher percentage. They do not have to get anyone to analyze anything and concur with that. This is your fatal flaw in your argument.
It is a negotiation. A mediator can not penalize them or say they are negotiating in bad faith when they say their business decision is that they need a higher %. They do not have to show a rationale for that, the fact that their profits are unacceptable to THEM is sufficient. No other party must concur or in the contrary tell them what they should accept for profits.


Yes you can. Good faith does not mean you have to compromise on what you need to make a deal.


Yes, you can.


Yet they are one of the teams negotiating. Are you saying that they are irrelevant? If the current deal puts one of their franchises in the position of one bad year of inflation causing them to be in the red, then of course the entire group of owners must find that unacceptable. Even if they are in the worst shape, they are evidence the deal isnt working very well.


The league believes that all of the franchises together are not profitable enough. Once again they are not ARGUING that. They have DECIDED that. That topic is not negotiable. It is not part of the CBA.

Wow. You have some seriously strange ideas about what goes on in mediated labor negotiations. Just truly bizarre.

It's not like debate club, or some abstract logic game with all sorts of arbitrary regulations and restrictions about what you can and can't ask the other team. It's a real-world labor negotiation, with a mediator present to facilitate constructive communication and ensure that both sides negotiate in good faith, and the two parties aren't adversaries - they're colleagues, and the goal of the negotiations is as mutually beneficial a compromise as possible.

Every point of contention is discussed in depth. Every position is explained. The point of mediated negotiation is to enhance communication between the sides. Many arguments are made by both sides justifying their view of why something should be handled a certain way. You don't go into a negotiation session and say "we want X additional percent from the last contract, but we're not saying why." The idea of one side refusing to make clear its needs is just absurd, and would most certainly qualify as 'bad faith.'

You can't go into negotiations and refuse to negotiate, and refusing to go into the details of why a certain concession is necessary is refusing to negotiate. The discussion of what needs would be met by a certain concession enables the other side to come back with an offer that meets those needs but through a different channel. It's this back and forth communication that differentiates negotiations from plain old haggling.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that you just go in and demand whatever you want without any attempt to ground it in the economic reality both sides are living in. I'm sure it never even occurred to the owners or Goodell to ask for an increase in the percentage off the top without justifying it vis a vis the franchises profitability.

And that's the other place where your argument runs itself into a brick wall -- you keep claiming, contrary to simple fact, that the owners share these absurd notions you have about how negotiations work, and have refused to make the case for the concessions they're asking for, when that's just clearly not what's been happening. The league has been making the case for the concessions they're asking for from the very start. They have not been shy about it. You're the only one standing up for this strange negotiating principle you've invented.
 
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