A Look at The Burgess Trade

[maverick4]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

For once he's correct. Stats don't tell the entire story, which is why they shouldn't be the end all criteria in discussions over a player, an offensive unit, or a team.

What Burgess provides for us now is the high level pass rusher we need in obvious passing downs, to pair with AD. Reports indicate he's not too great against the run, but we should be okay since Woods is supposedly the best run stuffing OLB on the team.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Well if it's his "specialty", then he should be fired after last year's performance. Vrabel's "very little pass rush" got more sacks last year.

There is more to rushing the passer than racking up sack totals.

 

[The 12th Man]

Stats don't tell the whole story. And this was brought up in the other thread with a counter of Randy Moss' production.

Burgess hasn't exactly played on the best of defenses. In fact, the quality of the other defensive players around him has gone down since 2005. Not to mention the coaching carousel that has gone on there in Oakland. Burgess also was lining up some on the strong side last year instead of his normal side, the weak side. So, that is going to also hamper the number of sacks he got.

Some people claim that is "apologizing" for his stats. The reality is that its all contributing factors that have to be considered when looking at them. Does it guarantee anything? Nope. It doesn't. But some people would have you believe that it does.

I agree with you that stats don't tell the whole story. But OUR defense last year was towards the bottom of the league so we can say the same for Vrabel. Just look at our D-backs last year, couldn't cover anyone. Mayo was a bright spot but even he made plenty mistakes his rookie year.

Again, I think Burgess is a good pass rusher and I hope he has an EXCELLENT year with the Pats (if he does, you know he'll sign a huge contract with another team anyway) but I'm just saying that keeping Vrabel at his salary would have been better for this team than trading for Burgess.

 

[APatrioticVirginian]

Burgess played in the 3-4 under Rob Ryan in Oakland when they had Ted Washington lining up at NT and Warren Sapp at one DE position and Bobby Hamilton at the other. Burgess put up 16 sacks that year. However, its unknown whether Ryan ran it as a one gap or two gap system.

Strictly a 2 gap

 

[ramon]

I think a 3rd and a 4th or 5th is way too much for Burgess.

He is getting up there (30)

wants big dollars, is locked up for only one year and is injury prone.
He wasn't happy with his contract at Oakland, will he be any happier here?


This smacks a little bit of desperation.

I hope he does well, but they overpaid

 

[Fencer]

Isn't there a stat in another thread that Burgess was rated at 16 QB hurries last year?

To BB a hurry is almost as good as a sack, I think on the theory that the hurry is what you accomplished, and whether or not the QB goes down is more on him.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I think a 3rd and a 4th or 5th is way too much for Burgess.

He is getting up there (30)

wants big dollars, is locked up for only one year and is injury prone.
He wasn't happy with his contract at Oakland, will he be any happier here?


This smacks a little bit of desperation.

I hope he does well, but they overpaid

They very well may have overpaid. Age and production are concerns but I think the upside of the deal is worth the risk.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree with you that stats don't tell the whole story. But OUR defense last year was towards the bottom of the league so we can say the same for Vrabel. Just look at our D-backs last year, couldn't cover anyone. Mayo was a bright spot but even he made plenty mistakes his rookie year.

Again, I think Burgess is a good pass rusher and I hope he has an EXCELLENT year with the Pats (if he does, you know he'll sign a huge contract with another team anyway) but I'm just saying that keeping Vrabel at his salary would have been better for this team than trading for Burgess.

The Pats defense was 10th in yards allowed per game. 11th against the Pass and 15th against the run. They also allowed the fewest number of offensive plays to opponents. The Patriots were 8th in points allowed.

Yes, the Pats defense was towards the bottom was in sacks, interceptions, 3rd down coversions allowed, and forced fumbles.

But, overall, they weren't as bad as people think...

 

[DaBruinz]

Strictly a 2 gap

Could you please provide a link to your information that Ryan employed the 2 Gap 3-4 in Oakland?

 

[CrazyDave]

I think a 3rd and a 4th or 5th is way too much for Burgess.

He is getting up there (30)

wants big dollars, is locked up for only one year and is injury prone.
He wasn't happy with his contract at Oakland, will he be any happier here?


This smacks a little bit of desperation.

I hope he does well, but they overpaid

Desperation, or urgency?

 

[SammyBlueCat]

He wasn't happy with his contract at Oakland, will he be any happier here?

He may get excited after winning a few games. No?

 

[VJCPatriot]

What I'm trying to say is that Vrabel was easily worth 4.5 mil cap to keep for at least one more year or extend his contract.

BB didn't think so.

BB kept Bruschi even though he's older didn't he?

Bruschi's base salary is only 1.9M. Whereas Vrabel costs more than double that. Bruschi plays inside lineback, where lack of speed hurts him less as well.

I'm saying that Vrabel brought a LOT to this team and after seeing that he's pretty much replaced by another veteran with 1 year left on his contract, I don't like the Vrabel trade looking back.

Vrabel brought lots to the team, 2 years ago. Going forward he's a 34 year old OLB who's lost that step he needs to get around the offensive linemen. That doesn't improve the team, and is certainly NOT cost effective at nearly 5M dollars.

And the question should be will Burgess be $1.2M better than the 2009 Mike Vrabel (defensive captain, locker room leader, experience in system) PLUS a future 3rd and 4/5th round picks, and we won't know that for a few years to come I guess.

The Pats will only be paying Burgess' 2M base salary in 2009. So the REAL question is - Does the Pats saving nearly 3M dollars in cap room and upgrading Vrabel with a younger 30 year old OLB justify the price of a 3rd round pick in 2010 and a 5th rounder in 2011? Only time will tell for sure, but initially this looks like a good pickup.

 

[patsfan-1982]

He may get excited after winning a few games. No?

winning all way's help's

that and aftter sapp and washington wher gone he's sack number's

went way down with the pats he has AD and seymour so he wont be the only passrusher

he is geting up there in age and would like one more big pay day

so he will play for the pats on a one year 2mil deal

and who knows he may get 7 or 8 sacks and play will

and maybe a uncaped year in 2010 he could get some good money from the pats or some outher team

 

[JoeShmoe]

Im not sure where the beef is

We have 4 first day picks next year and good ol' Bill will likely trade down and down, take a few he wants and stockpile for 2011 again

We have a legitimate SB chance as usual if TB stays healthy - the one thing we are missing is help with the pass rush. This addresses that so its all good

 

[Dagg]

Vrabel is way to slow and has been declining for a few years. Our lack of pressure lead to our fairly weak secondary getting exposed big time last year.

Burress is definatley an upgrade over Vrabel for the 2009 season as someone else mentioned. Stats dont tell the entire story how is burgress supposed to get sacks when teams are merely running out the c,lock on oakland. Here he will be pinning his ears back as team try to come from behind.

We needed help and we got it I am excited as this was the one glaring hole defensively as the secondary has already been improved via FA.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The Pats defense was 10th in yards allowed per game. 11th against the Pass and 15th against the run. They also allowed the fewest number of offensive plays to opponents. The Patriots were 8th in points allowed.

Yes, the Pats defense was towards the bottom was in sacks, interceptions, 3rd down coversions allowed, and forced fumbles.

But, overall, they weren't as bad as people think...

Check this out. Interesting stuff..

Pats O finished #1 in offensive plays last year, 1sts downs, 4th in rushing attempts and 3rd in time of possession.

The pass D finished 24th in YPP, 16th in comp %, 15th in INTs, 2nd in 40+ ypp 24 in 3rd down % allowed and 22nd in Qb rtng and

They acutally finished 7th in fewest 1st downs per-game.

My contention is that BB protected the D b/c he didn't trust it to make stops.
It was 2002 all over again.

My .02$

 

[The 12th Man]

BB didn't think so.

BB didn't know who would replace Vrabel at the time.

Bruschi's base salary is only 1.9M. Whereas Vrabel costs more than double that. Bruschi plays inside lineback, where lack of speed hurts him less as well.

Vrabel's BASE salary would have been only 2.2M, not much more than Bruschi's. Cap hit would have been about 4.2M, while Bruschi's is 2.6M, but by trading Vrabel, we still have 1M cap hit from his bonus money.

Vrabel brought lots to the team, 2 years ago. Going forward he's a 34 year old OLB who's lost that step he needs to get around the offensive linemen. That doesn't improve the team, and is certainly NOT cost effective at nearly 5M dollars.

Like I said, the cap hit would have been 4.2M and 1M is was already commited. Plus, we get a guy in return who is only 3 years younger. Don't you think Burgess is on the decline too? Or is 34 much older than 31 for LBs.

The Pats will only be paying Burgess' 2M base salary in 2009. So the REAL question is - Does the Pats saving nearly 3M dollars in cap room and upgrading Vrabel with a younger 30 year old OLB justify the price of a 3rd round pick in 2010 and a 5th rounder in 2011? Only time will tell for sure, but initially this looks like a good pickup.

THE PATS ONLY SAVED 1.2M DOLLARS, NOT 3M. And again, Vrabel turns 34 a couple days after Burgess turns 31. 3 years difference, 1 yr contract too.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

What I'm trying to say is that Vrabel was easily worth 4.5 mil cap to keep for at least one more year or extend his contract.............

Listen dude, I love Vrabs as much as anyone, and I'm a pretty well documented homer around these parts, and I gotta say.....

Your not doing much for your "credible arguement" by saying that. Much as the guy will be beloved around here, no ****ing chance he was worth 4.5 M to the cap. NONE.

He wasn't happy with his contract at Oakland, will he be any happier here?

Lets ask Randy Moss.

 

[The 12th Man]

Listen dude, I love Vrabs as much as anyone, and I'm a pretty well documented homer around these parts, and I gotta say.....

Your not doing much for your "credible arguement" by saying that. Much as the guy will be beloved around here, no ****ing chance he was worth 4.5 M to the cap. NONE.

Do you think Jarvis Green is worth the 5.4M cap he has this year? What about Seymour's 9.8M cap? Green is not even an every down linemen. Why didn't we trade Green or Seymour with 1 yr left on their contracts and make a push for Pepper or someone of that calibur? (I think it would actually be about 4.2M for Vrabel but I could be wrong).

 

[patsfan-1982]

Do you think Jarvis Green is worth the 5.4M cap he has this year? What about Seymour's 9.8M cap? Green is not even an every down linemen. Why didn't we trade Green or Seymour with 1 yr left on their contracts and make a push for Pepper or someone of that calibur? (I think it would actually be about 4.2M for Vrabel but I could be wrong).

will vrabel was to slow to be a passrusher any more

and to keep him around at 4million a year just to be a goalline TE make's no sence

and to trade seymour one of the best DL in the NFL for peppers and then pay him 17 million a year for a OLB who hes never even played OLB ?


peppers best year 51 tackels and 14.5 sacks at DE


burgess best year 57 tackels and 16 sacks at 3-4 OLB


im not saying he's better then peppers but at lest he played in a 3-4 at OLB

and we dont have to give up our best DL and draft picks and 17 million a year

and burgess is faster and a better passrusher and cost less then vrabel