PonyExpress

Annibal Sanchez throws a no-hitter. So the Red Sox traded Hanley Ramirez, the NL rookie of the year, and Annibal Sanchez, who just threw a no hitter and hasn't lost in a month, for blister boy Josh Beckett. Great.

patriotspride

it seemed like a good trade at the time didnt it? no trade or signing they do seems to workout anymore .

Johnny Mac

Hey, Beckett hasn't had any blisters this year.

And I'd give the RoY to Uggla or Josh Johnson, but it's close.

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PonyExpress

The list of horrible personnel moves is becoming absurd:
Dave Roberts .308/.375 OBP/40SB for Jay Payton
Josh Bard .324 and Cla Meredith (0.50 ERA) for Mirabelli
Arroyo 12-9/3.23 ERA for Willie Mo
Annibal Sanchez 7-2/2.89 ERA and Hanley Ramirez .285/50 SB for Beckett and Lowell
Freddy Sanches (.346) for Scott Sauerbeck
Crisp for Damon
Overworking papelbon (more 4+ out saves than any closer in baseball)
Not trading for Abreu because "we already have Trot Nixon"
Seanez and Tavarez
Byung Yung Kim
etc., etc.
When does it stop? Is it just bad luck? Remember what Napoleon said when told a certain General was brilliant. "Yes, yes... but is he lucky?"

patriotspride

the byung yung kim trade was one of the best trades they made it freed up playing time for big pappi and bill mueller and kim that year stabilized the pen .we didnt trade for abreu for alot of reasons so i wouldnt add that one to your list either and freddy sanches was traded for jeff supan not sourdick he was a seperate trade but still a lousy trade and worthy of your list.

PonyExpress

Good point. I also forgot Matt Clemental for Derek Lowe. If you have any others to add, feel free. The "bad decision" list is becoming staggering. Thankfully they didn't trade Manny Ramirez, not because it's the wrong thing to do, but because I'm sure they would have gotten back a six pack of warm beer in exchange.

PatsWorldChamps

yeah, "Blind Squirrel" Epstein is a genious

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Foley

For Jay Payton, David Pauley, and Ramon Vazquez. Payton was traded for Chad Bradford who they got a decent half season out of, and Vazquez was traded for Cora who is a very good back up utility infielder. Roberts has continued to have injury trouble.
Terrible trade. Couldn't agree more. This is what happens when the FO listens to everyones whining and makes a trade to bring back one of their guys.
If he wasn't a part time player Pena would have about 30 HR this season, next year when he is the everyday RF this won't be considered a terrible trade for Boston.
Lowell is outperforming Ramirez in nearly every statsitic other than SBs. And Lowell isn't doing that great. And Sanchez joins the elite group of Bud Smith, Eric Milton, Jose Jimenez and a bunch of other guys who've had mediocre careers to throw a no-hitter. Throwing a no-hitter is nice, but it is by no means a bermoeter of a successful career. He very well might have one, and I hope that he does because it reflects better of the Red Sox farm system, but a good season as a rookie in a league that is doing extremely poorly this year doesn't mean he is a better pitcher than Beckett. If Beckett has another bad year while Sanchez goes on to be fantastic, then the trade sucks, but one season after a trade is never the best time to fully make a clear judgment. Its very easy to call a GM an idiot when a trade goes down that doesn't work out perfectly, despite the fact that everyone and their uncle said that the trade was outstanding at the time.
You've got this trade all wrong. It was actually Mike Gonzalez and Scott Sauerbeck for Brandon Lyon and Anistacio Martinez. Which would have been a fantastic trade had Pittsburgh not whined about Lyons elbow injury (which they knew about before the trade) and insisted that the Sox take him back. They then made another trade involving Gonzalez and Sanchez going over to Pittsburgh for Martinez, Lyon and Jeff Suppan. Bad move in hindsight absolutely, but it was heralded at the time because Suppan was the best starter available at the deadline.
The move sucks now, but this is another one like Pena/Arroyo that shouldn't be judged so soon. If Crisp does better when he is healthy for a full season and Damon declines in a few years (like everyone, including Yankee fans before they signed him, said would happen) then the trade doesn't look so bad.
That really has nothing to do with Theo or the FO, but regardless, a short while ago everyone was whining about how Papelbon wasn't being used in 2 inning saves enough. He was their only very good reliever so whenever Timlin or Delcarmen or anyone else was brought into the 8th inning people whined about how Papelbon should have been used for a 6 out save because no one else is good enough and could have blown the game.
Already having Nixon, and not having the desire to take on Abreus $20+ million for next year giving them almost no room for Free Agents this offseason. I know you'd like to think this, but they really do have a budget.
What about them? They didn't sign them with the intent that they would be important cogs to the bullpen and were never used as such. And Rudy is already 1-0 with 3Ks in 2IP, a few more scoreless outings and does getting rid of Seanez go on the list of terrible moves?
Like already posted, the move gave Ortiz more playing time, stabilized the pen and put the Red Sox into the 2003 postseason. Not a bad trade.
Clement and Wells were brought in to replace Pedro and Lowe, which they did in 2005. Neither was as good as Pedro, but both were much better than Lowe. A lot of people apparently forget how absolutely terrible Lowe was in the regular season in 2004, and how he wasn't much better the year before.
Yes, a bit of it is bad luck. Crisp getting injured and missing a few months and never being able to re-adjust... Meredith with a 5.27ERA in Pawtucket and Bard, a career .250 hitter before 2006, both doing fantastic in SD... Clement falling apart (I know some people blame this on the fact he isn't mentally strong enough to pitch in Boston, or something like that, but Cubs fans just as hard on their players as Red Sox fans and he never collapsed there).

But I think the bigger thing is that a lot of the trades/moves are still really in their infancy and shouldn't be judged so soon. It’s certainly possible that everyone they traded for continues to suck while everyone they got rid of does great, or that could only be the case this year. Damon could decline to a .260 hitter by 2008 while Crisp rebounds and plays in his prime. Beckett could bounce back from a bad year and be the ace of the staff for the next 10 years. Pena should become a great power hitter (which he’s shown he can be this year, he just hasn't had the playing time). And so on. The Suppan for Sanchez can be deemed a bad trade now that it has been played out, but the past two years when Sanchez was either injured or a part time player no one really had that big of an opinion on it. No one had much of an opinion on the Heathcliff Slocum for Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe trade when it first happened. While Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson was deemed a great success when it happened. And a lot of people hated the Nomar trade. Its way to early to judge some of these moves.

Now don't get me wrong: I am by no means a Theo/FO ballwasher and have criticized them numerous times in the past about things they've done or haven't done, or Theo having a temper tantrum and leaving in the offseason, or a bunch of other stuff, but I don't think its really fair to criticize a trade that everyone loved at the time just because it hasn't worked out perfectly right now. People whined non-stop about how not resigning Pedro was an awful move, now the general thought is that it was a good move because he’s been injured most of this year. But if he bounces back and is great in 2007, people will go right back to calling Theo an idiot for not resigning him. I think that’s absurd.

PonyExpress

Tremendous insight. Thanks for taking the time. I take issue with one point that I've heard often: We can't criticize the front office for a trade most fans agreed with at the time. This is a massive fallacy. None of us has the salary or the resources of the front office. They should be judged on their record. Second guessing a front office is absolutely justifiable. Also, I think Derek Lowe has been very good this year, and decent last year. I would, in retrospect take D.Lowe over Clement easily. Also, my point about Seanez is to highlight a trend with the FO: they have a very difficult time judging pitching talent, especially filling out the bullpen. The seanez and Tavarez signings highlight this. And although it is true that all these trades may turn out golden in a few years, the early returns are stunningly bad, and have cost the Red Sox big time so far.

Foley

No resources they have could have told them that Beckett would not be very good this year. Its fine to criticize trades that happen and say they are bad or shouldn't have been made, but I don't think that the FO should be held accountable when a trade everyone thought was fantastic turns out to be a dud. I know this is an unrealistic scenario, but if Boston trades Kyle Snyder for Johan Santana this offseason, and Snyder goes on to win 5 Cy Youngs while Santana annually struggles to keep his ERA below 5, are the Red Sox idiots for making the trade?

Lowe has been very good the past two years and of course if given the chance now I'd rather have him over Clement, but after 2003 and 2004 I wanted Lowe nowhere near the team. He was flat out awful and one of the worst starters in baseball that season. Clement, though no ace himself had a much better 2003-2004 than Lowe.

I don't think it’s so much an issue that they can't judge relievers talent, as much as they haven't wanted to go out and get a big name guy since the last time they did that it blew up in their face. Keith Foulke was one of the best closers in baseball from 1999-2004 and was a huge investment on their part, but after 2004 he was trash. Maybe that made them gun-shy about going hard after a BJ Ryan or Billy Wagner, but considering how fickle relievers can be, they really needed to have done that. Or at the very least, have traded for a Scott Eyre, Joe Borowski, Damaso Marte, or someone else at the deadline.