Name 5 Upgrades or Replacements - Page 9 - New England Patriots Forums

***Deus Irae*** · 02-14-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBruinz

You really aren't following the conversation well enough. Rob0729 did not call Gross a bust. I called Gross a bust and I still feel that way because when Carolina drafted him, they drafted him with the intentions of his being their franchise LT. Not their starting RT.

Rob0729 called him a "pretty good rt". I was responding to that, which is why I quoted it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBruinz

The Pats drafted Light in the 2nd round in 2001. He's worked out very well there. If all you expect out of a top 10 OT is for him to be able to play somewhere on your O-line decade you seem to have really low standards. I expect that from 2nd and 3rd round linemen. From a top 10 pick, I expect them to be amongst the best at their position by their 3rd year. Meaning, if he's drafted as a LT, then he should be starting at LT by his 2nd year and amongst the top 10 in the league by his 3rd. (generally speaking)

My expectations of any first round player chosen is that about 1/3 will be major disappointments or busts, about 1/3 will be solid players and about 1/3 will be better than solid, with more busts later in the round than at the beginning, but the biggest busts coming at the top. That's what history teaches us. It also teaches us that some teams draft better than others, but every team makes mistakes. Anyone who expects anything else simply needs to re-align their expectations with reality. It you drafted Ryan Leaf, you were hosed. If you drafted Peyton Manning you're all but orgasmic. If you drafted Matt Leinart, you don't know how to feel yet and, if you drafted Jordan Gross, you're very happy to have gotten a quality player, thrilled that you didn't draft Jerome McDougle or Kyle Boller, and bummed that you didn't draft Ty Warren or Troy Polamalu. Such is the nature of the NFL draft.

***Rob0729*** · 02-14-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Irae

1.) Your expectations, as I believe I've noted before with different words, don't match up with reality in the NFL at any time in the history of the draft. It's why I reject your definition of the word "bust". Furthermore, Gross allowed only one sack all season, despite having to protect some poor quality quarterbacks. I'm not sure that he's just "pretty good" at the position.

2.) You aren't spending a top 10 pick for a pretty good RT. You're spending a top 10 pick for a tackle that should be able to play for your team for a decade. You hope that he's capable of being an elite LT, obviously, but the great thing about drafting a tackle that you feel is a top 10 talent is that even if he doesn't succeed as a LT, he'll likely succeed elsewhere on the OL. On the other hand, a safety who can't play safety, a corner who can't play corner, or a WR who can't play WR, is pretty much shot as a pick.

I trust Belioli to draft well in the first round, given history. Therefore, I trust that if Belioli feels there's a top 10 tackle available at #7, that tackle will be a quality player for the Patriots. Given that the Patriots seem to need O-line help at the RT and RG positions, and that Light isn't getting younger, I'll take the LT, thanks, and happily plug him in at RG at the beginning of his career. I won't cry if the team decides to go with a LB or CB, I simply think that protecting the franchise QB for the next 5-10 seasons is the most important thing to do and that drafting a top flight tackle is a great way to do that.

1.) So when you draft in the top 10, you shouldn't expect to get an elite or at least Pro Bowl quality player? Why in the world would you draft in the top 10 then considering many top 10 players get paid far more than many proven stars at their position. I think anytime you draft a top 10 player you expect a Pro Bowler. Any time you drafta tackle in the top 10, you expect him to be a very good LT. Anything less is a disapointment to bust depending how below expectations the player falls. I don't know if any GM feels any different on that.

2.) If you end up with a RT that spends a decade with your team with a top 10 pick, you didn't get value in my opinion. RTs is a position you can easily fill with a solid player in later rounds. Sorry, the RT is a lesser position in football and a team should aim for a franchise quality player in the top 10. You don't build your franchise around a RT.

As for Light's age, he is going to be 30 next season. For a LT, he could have 3-5 more productive years as a LT. Walter Jones is still one of the best LTs in the league and he was 33 last year. I don't know why anyone is ready to put him out to pasture.

As for Belichick and Pioli, I will trust their decision. But based on our needs, I would be surprised if we do not go defense with the first pick.

***DaBruinz*** · 02-14-2008, 02:11 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why people think that Chris Hanson is such a bad player other than he doesn't get enough punts inside the 20. The punt return average is 5.357 yards. Only 31.8% of his punts are actually returned. Both are 2nd best in the league. And the NET of 39.7 is good for 10th in the league.

***Deus Irae*** · 02-14-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

1.) So when you draft in the top 10, you shouldn't expect to get an elite or at least Pro Bowl quality player? Why in the world would you draft in the top 10 then considering many top 10 players get paid far more than many proven stars at their position. I think anytime you draft a top 10 player you expect a Pro Bowler. Any time you drafta tackle in the top 10, you expect him to be a very good LT. Anything less is a disapointment to bust depending how below expectations the player falls. I don't know if any GM feels any different on that.

I doubt there's a single GM in any team sport who feels the way you do. If you draft a player to play the point guard, but he can't do it, you don't call him a bust if he becomes a quality player at the 2 guard. Tra Thomas is not a bust, no matter which tackle position he's played for most of his career.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

2.) If you end up with a RT that spends a decade with your team with a top 10 pick, you didn't get value in my opinion. RTs is a position you can easily fill with a solid player in later rounds. Sorry, the RT is a lesser position in football and a team should aim for a franchise quality player in the top 10. You don't build your franchise around a RT.

Teams move pass rushers around in today's game, and they don't just put great pass rushers up against left tackles. As the season finale and the Super Bowl against the Giants showed, and games against the Dolphins show repeatedly, right tackle is an extremely important position in this team's offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

As for Light's age, he is going to be 30 next season. For a LT, he could have 3-5 more productive years as a LT. Walter Jones is still one of the best LTs in the league and he was 33 last year. I don't know why anyone is ready to put him out to pasture.

Jones is a bad choice, as he had a bad season this past year and may, or may not, be in decline. Furthermore, my suggestion of drafting a LT and playing him on the right side for a couple of years is certainly not a way to put Light out to pasture. It's taking advantage of a unique opportunity to keep the offense's second most important position strong for a decade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

As for Belichick and Pioli, I will trust their decision. But based on our needs, I would be surprised if we do not go defense with the first pick.

If the team drafts purely for need, I agree with you that it will likely be a linebacker or cornerback depending upon the resolution of the Gay/Samuel situations and the Seau/Bruschi situations. Of course, offseason developments will likely lead to situational changes that make some, or all, of us to change our opinions.

***Rob0729*** · 02-14-2008, 03:28 PM

This is getting ridiculous. If you think that most GMs don't agree with me that if they are drafting in the top 10 picks they are expecting a franchise player or close to it and anything less including moving a tackle to the RT position which is the lesser spot, so be it. I am tired of going around in circles with you on this.