patfanken

.....a few camp answers.

Its been a while since I had enough to say to actually open a thread in my usual long winded manner, but since everyone else and their grandmother has had their say ( made available thanks to Box), I thought I'd offer my thoughts. Hopefully I will offer enough to make the read worthwhile, and if I can't offer more than Donaldson, feel free to delete it.

Now I am one of the lucky ones who is semi retired and living in SE MA, so I will get to a lot of practices this camp and I've been giving careful thought about what I want to consentrate on. We all know the OBVIOUS questions, such that they are, so I will try dig a deeper than "who will be the OL opposite AThomas".

So in no particular order lets start with the OL. Now on the surface that would seem like an no brainer because the starters seem to set...and I agree. I saw a post (on a Jets site surprisingly) that showed the Pats individual OL grades. A score of .80+ was considered good. A score above .90+ was an all pro. It was interesting to note (as did the author) that the Pats were among a VERY few teams who had ALL five starters with grades over .80. What was somewhat more surprising was that local whipping boy Nick Kazcur had the 3nd highest score, only behind Mankins and Neal (who didn't play the entire season) Now when you concider these scores where accomplished admist the turmoil of Matt Cassel's education as an NFL QB, (which included 47 sacks) they are quite good, and by the end of the season the offense was amongst the best in the league.

BTW- it should be noted that they Pat OL DIDN'T have any players with scores OVER .90 either...though I'm sure THAT little nugget didn't surprise anyone.

Now all that stuff is well and good, HOWEVER what I'm intrigued about, are the back ups. Over the next 3 years we are going to see a transition on the OL, just like we saw in the secondary, (and we should plan on a long discussion on this topic in 2010) and BB has been building toward it over the last couple of years and he reached a climax with the drafting of 3 OLmen in the top 5 rounds this year.

So I find it fascinating that along with the THREE good looking rookies, we have the usual crowd of players looking to graduate from Scarnecchia U, like Britt, OCallahan, and Yates, along with the grizzled proven vets like Hockstein, and Al Johnson. And there is Marc Levoir....

Here is a young guy who was an UDFA we very quietly found on waivers from the Rams very late in camp, after 2 very unspectacular seasons on the Bears PS, and he not only had a couple of very good starts, he managed to show flexibility and athleticism with a lot of special teams play. Quite frankly he very quietly opened some eyes down at Gillette

Now here are some of my OL questions. Is LaVoire going to CONTINUE to be the primary backup to Light as he was in OTAs? How much time with the first and second group will Sebby Volmer play. Is he a 2-3 year project, or is his right out of the box, ready to compete for time? The same goes for Ornberger. Will Al Johnson, who was a 2nd rounder, and starter with BOTH the Cards and Cowboys, push Koppen for playing time. Johnson is a little bigger and taller than Dan, who had some trouble with big powerful NTs like the Jets' Kris Jenkins.

Now to the Offensive backfield. Obviously it going to be RB by commitee with the talent laden Pats. This is a team that is planning for January right from the begining of August, and there is NO need to over burden ANY of the RBs with too much work over the course of the regular season. We have 3 guys who are pretty much interchangeable, even though they have dissimialar running styles, PLUS Kevin Faulk. So here are my questions

Will a healthy Maroney be a slasher at last and fullfill his potential, even with a minium of carries? Will he stay healthy? Can Fred Taylor recapture a bit of the burst and vision he showed for SOOOO many years in Jacksonville. You know with running backs it can go so quickly...just ask Shaun Alexander. And will he ever catch a ball out of the backfield? Can Sammy Morris keep being....Sammy Morris? The same for Kevin Faulk. All but Maroney are really getting up their in RB age. Will they grab a FB off FA or will they use a combination of TE's and OLmen as blocking backs?

Now to the QBs. Well we all know the QB quesitons. Let me give you a QB answer.. at least from what I have heard. Not to worry about the backup QB. They LOOOOOOVE Kevin O'Connell. To make it simple, think of Matt Cassel with a slightly better arm, and who is a faster more athletic version. (Brady must be sick with envy to have watched these kids run around) He also had FORTY college starts at SD State (take THAT Mark Sanchez)

My questions for him will be to see improved accuracy and quickening decision making. Seeing him develp a comfort level in the pocket and the presence to STAY their and move WITHIN the pocket instead of running for cover at the first sign of pressure. (see the difference between Matt Cassel game 2 and Matt Cassel game 14)

My questions on Brady are the same one we all have, and we'll save a lot of time by leaving it at that.

Now moving over to the defensive side:

The big three is set, and I expect big things, especially from Seymour in a contract year. This is his chance to make Albert Haynesworth money and I don't think he'll fail to take advantage of the opportunity. But like the OL the real interest for me will be what is going on with the rest of the unit.

Now I expect to see some immediate dividends with the Brace signing. If he is as good as I expect, the Pats will be MUCH improved on the GL and short yardage this season. The Pats with Brace, can run some 4-3 with some REAL conviction, and run 2 different kinds with a combination of Wilfolk and Brace as DTs and one with Seymour and Wilfolk for somebig push up the middle. So the questions are: will he work out with Just the NTs or will he get some reps at DE and how many. Will the Pats show some 4-3 in camp and how much. What will be their alignment when they practice GL?

I want to see if we see a healthier and more productive Jarvis Green. Will he be supplanted by Mike Wright or LeKevin Smith as the primary DE back up. Will either of the 2 rookie DTs show any promise?

Now the LBs. For YEARS everyone has complained about our aged LBs. Well know with the exception of Bruschi and Thomas, we HAVE young and athletic LBs....a TON of them. and now we are going to see them play.

I'll be looking to see if they keep Guyton strictly on the inside and who he's replacing in coverage packages. I'll want to see WHO they are playing on the strong side, Thomas or whomever. Will they flop sides or stay on the same side and flop responsibilities. I'll want to see if Vince Redd flashes any of that enormous athletic ability, or is he our version of "Vernon Ghoston", only a LOT less expensive. I'll want to see if they keep Thomas on the field on passing downs strictly to pass rush, or will he drop in cover as much. And then the obvious one Pierre Woods or Shawn Crabel. THAT WILL BE FUN to watch. And IMHO, we will be VERY happy with the results. No one ever heard of James Harrison during his first years with the Steeler either.

Now the DBs. I'm kind of getting tired and their are just SOOO many questions here, but let me add this. I don't know how this will work out, but this is the DEEPEST and most TALENTED secondary I've seen in the BB years. Yes we might have had some starting units with more talent, but never almost 3 deep. Let just take CB for instance (and I've mentioned it before) We have 2 experienced vets, EACH of whom were their team's best CB last season. We have young guys BOTH of whon flashed starting talent with the limited experience they had last season. AAAAND we have rookie in Butler, who EVENTUALLY just may be the best of all of them, and right now he's just a luxury, where on a lot of teams he'd be expected to compete for a starting position.

We not only added talent, we added SIZE and strength at the CB position with Boddin and Springs, along with Wilhite who is a long armed 5'11, (which is big for a Patriot CB ) This will BE a factor in the improvement of our GL D this season (along with Brace up front)

Compare this with say the Jets, who have very good front line talent, almost equal to ours except at QB and WR, but after their starters sit down or go down, they are dead in the water...and you can say that about the rest of the division... and there lies the key difference between the teams.

Now one of the more interesting and untalked about issues that will be PARTICULARLY difficult to track during camp will be SPECIAL TEAMS....along with the NEW special teams coach. Its always hard to see whats going on from the stands. Our special teams last season were pretty UNSPECIAL. Now some of that can be explained by al the injuries, but some of it must have been partly the reason Brad Sealy is no longer the special teams coach. At any rate, the special teams have long been a priority of BB, and it will be interesting to see how several of the pickups, ie TBC will improve that production.

Finally after thinking about last season. All the injuries, especially to Brady. The bad secondary. The spotty LB play. The long 3rd and longs given up. The lack of QB pressure. The 47 sacks. The horrid red zone play, No Tom Brady, etc, etc, etc. How the F did we manage to win 11 games....and now that we hope to have Brady back and a HOST of others, including our new additions, can we NOT manage to win just 3 more.

Just food for thought

Box_O_Rocks

De nada

Copius note sharing is required.

Yup, and "surprising" to who?

Bingo.

Yes, but 40 college starts reinforcing bad mechanics and a run-for-your-life pocket reality does leave me nervous over the short term, if he can get three years behind Brady/Cassel to reshape him, I'll feel better.

Will a "healthy" Jarvis return to "normal," which is by definition "productive?"

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ctpatsfan77

Well, clearly, despite those bad habits, they felt he represented good value in the third.

That said, it does seem kinda ironic that with Cassel, they basically had to teach him that there is a clock, while with O'Connell it's basically teaching him that the OL is actually there to protect him.

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Mike the Brit

Yes. +1

Add: fullback. Will the Pats go without one -- it looks like it? If so, how will that role be allocated? How much diminished? Candidates: the tight ends (but which ones?), Hochstein, and possibly BJGE.

To be Devil's Advocate.

We played two really horrible divisions (AFC and NFC West) and didn't really put away some of them -- games with Seattle and Rams were too close for comfort.

We were way off the pace in three of the five games we lost. The two that were close were the Colts and (**curses**) the Jets. The only good teams we beat were Miami, the Jets (but only once each) and, arguably, the Cardinals (although that was a meaningless game for them).

On the other hand, the team was on an upward curve for the last six weeks of the season as Cassel really grew into the starting role. I still believe that, if that team had made the play-offs, they would have been a match for anybody.

For me, there are three big questions -- the linebackers, the secondary and the loss of McDaniels -- and lots of small ones (backups, the future of the lines, tight ends, special teams).

I look forward to hearing all about all of them from you, Ken -- thanks!

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They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Well, Pats fans should be invincible by now. [Fitzy, 16 November 2009]

Still here to learn

APatrioticVirginian

I was gonna read this post but I think I'll wait for it to come out in paperback

fluoropolymer

Not a peep about the Tight End position - which I think will be key this year. I expect teams to challenge the OL up the middle (let's admit it, Koppen is a bit light and can be moved) and as a result the other OLs will shade to the middle. That combined with the need to give a little help to Matt Light against speed rushers indicates to me that the TEs are going to play a major role guaranteeing that Brady stays upright. That being said, if the OL is as good as we want it to be and the TE can release, then a seam route down the middle to the TE should be a thing of beauty for this team. Do we have the TEs on the roster to accomplish this?

patfanken

Box do I sense a feeling of forboding here. Trust me when I say that they feel they have anther kid who can start as an NFL QB, and while I doubt if it will be with the Pats, but he WILL be good enough to give us another first day draft pick, (or at least a second day pick based on the new draft format. )

As to his mechanics, It will be something to watch, but remember they've had a lot time to refine any mechanical malfunctions Kevin might have had from his college days. BTW- wasn't his college coach an ex NFL QB (Chuck Long) You'd think he'd know enough to watch his mechanics. And on the plus side, 40 games game him hundreds of full speed looks at the defense. Hundreds of pressure situations. Hundreds of leadership opportunities. Its not full proof, but it gives him a foundation to build on, certainly a lot better than the one Cassel started with and as we know first hand, the guys down in Foxboro are pretty good at building unknown QBs into NFL starters

patfanken

All fair points about the schedule, but we should know that ALL NFL teams have "scholarship" players, and the gap from the Raiders to the Pats are small enough. Just look to the Miami turn around. That being said, I didn't say that it would be easy to win more than 11 games, but given the additions, it will be a lot easier than doing it WITHOUT Brady, Morris, Neal, Green, Thomas, Wheatley, Sanders, Bruschi, etc, etc for better parts of the year like we did last season.

Box_O_Rocks

Linebackers: IMHO, this is trending in the right direction. The two veterans whom we positively know were on the radar (Taylor and Burgess) would have been situational players at best. They offer veteran leadership for the youngsters, and minor comfort for fans. I'm excited to see Woods, Crable, and Redd this season (Seymour's comments in the Scout.com piece linked yesterday are a must read).

Secondary: Meriweather a year wiser, Sanders back in place with his General's stars burnished, a fine mix of youth and veteran knowhow, speed, some potential for "pop" in the hitting department, did I mention speed? What me worry?

B. O'Brien (presumably): BB poached Weis from Parcells to develop the base offense and offensive philosophy the two of them must have had numerous, and fascinating, bull sessions designing in the 90's, he plucked McDaniels from the Saban bush and groomed him under Weis (and himself no less), and now he has a former college OC groomed under McDaniels (and "no less" again) - promising line of march so far. Further, please note how all three OC/OC prospects of the decade worked alongside two crafty and oft overlooked veterans - Scarnecchia & Fears. Parallel to this discussion, (He-who-is-scraped-off-your-shoes-at-the-dog-run and maverick4 are excused from this exercise, we know your "thought."), name a Patriots' position coach or coordinator developed by BB who did not turn in a more than competitive performance during his tenure (Mangini haters please try for objectivity).

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patfanken

Naw, I have questions, but I was getting "winded" at that point. I think you make a good point on the TEs. The real question will be how many we keep and how they will be used. 3 WRs looks like it will likely continue to be our basic set, so you have to ask yourself how many TEs do we need in a roster that is overcrowded with legit NFL talent already.'

On the other hand, "BB LOVES his TE's" and if we go W/O a legit FB, then we could very well keep all 4. That's one of the interesting things to watch for, though we likely won't know for real until the last cuts....or an injury makes the question moot.