Sciz

I'm not sure how that would've helped yesterday. You can't throw that pass in 20 MPH wind. There's a reason the longest completed pass yesterday was only 25 yards down the field.

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supafly

Not to mention the fact that both Wallace and Brown are nowhere near guarantees to be able to run the precise timing routes that are required in this offense, by reading and adjusting to every single coverage and play.

There's no guarantee they'd be in the right place at the right time, that they wouldn't add INT's to our extremely low turnover rate, that they would give their all on every play and not take plays off, that they'd block effectively in the running game, that they'd have a positive attitude, that they'd gain Brady's trust, that they wouldn't get injured, that they'd catch most of the balls, and finally and most importantly...that they'd somehow allow us to field the current team under the salary cap restrictions.

Wallace is currently being booed out of town as we speak, mostly for failing to catch the balls that were thrown to him this year.

Brown is a great draft find, which is what we need to luck out on, BUT he's nowhere near anything of a guarantee in this specific offense. That isn't even addressing the fact that we'd likely have to give up Wes Welker to even take a chance on him (or a player like him that seems to work with another team) due to cap restrictions and the whole team building aspect.

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Patiently waiting to defend the next "bubble" player in this summer's training camp.....

supafly

We beat them in last year's AFCCG, and for all intents and purposes beat them again in week 3, scoring 30 points on them and moving the ball at will. That game came down to poor critical calls by the replacement refs, the most of which were 2 questionable FG's--either one to our success.

Prior to the week 3 loss which was 31-30, Tom Brady was 5-1 vs Baltimore.

For every game that the great Antonio Brown scored on BAL, the PIT defense surely added a lot. On top of that BAL has beaten PIT in 3 of their last 4 matchups, so this thinking is thrown entirely out the window anyway.

We can beat Baltimore, or any other team in the NFL. The key is not turning the ball over and executing, which they normally do at a very high rate.

Just in case anyone missed the stat yesterday, Tom Brady was 67-0 at home when they had a lead at the half. Bill Belichick was 72-1 in his tenure.

That's 67 straight home games where they had a lead of 1 point, 3 points, whatever....that's insane. Absolutely insane.

I'm hoping that Belichick isn't going to run to the a team that has lost to Baltimore in 3 of its last 4 games (Pittsburgh) to ask them for player personnel advice. Especially when Brady himself was 5-2 against them prior to yesterday's loss.

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Patiently waiting to defend the next "bubble" player in this summer's training camp.....

MoLewisrocks

That was 2 years ago and if you watch the entire mistake laden game highlights the steelers owned the ravens back then because Flacco was a mistake prone putz and they turned the ball over repeatedly and didn't have the kind of offense that could overcome or afford repeated misakes. Baltimore has in the interim eliminated the mistakes and upgraded their offense.

The Steelers GM is now talking about wholesale changes to their approach (which has led to cap troubles) to counter that.

TomPatriot

Except that Flacco didn't chuck it up. Two Boldin catches he put it there on the break in route.

ivanvamp

Here is the complete list of Flacco's pass attempts on Sunday:

1st Quarter
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to R.Rice.
J.Flacco pass short right to V.Leach to BLT 27 for 17 yards (S.Gregory).
J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin (A.Talib).
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to E.Dickson.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to D.Pitta.

2nd Quarter
J.Flacco pass short right to V.Leach to BLT 18 for 5 yards (J.Mayo). FUMBLES (J.Mayo), ball out of bounds at BLT 16.
J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to BLT 33 for 17 yards (S.Gregory; K.Arrington).
J.Flacco pass short right to R.Rice to BLT 46 for 11 yards (B.Spikes).
J.Flacco pass short right to B.Pierce to NE 44 for 8 yards (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass deep left to T.Smith to NE 15 for 25 yards (K.Arrington) [V.Wilfork].
J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to D.Pitta.

3rd Quarter
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep middle to T.Smith [J.Mayo].
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep left to A.Boldin to NE 48 for 26 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to T.Smith.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to T.Doss (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to 50 for 22 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to R.Rice to NE 35 for 15 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short left to T.Smith to NE 30 for 5 yards (M.Cole).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to J.Jones.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to A.Boldin to NE 10 for 12 yards (M.Cole).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to NE 5 for 5 yards (J.Mayo).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to D.Pitta for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to R.Rice to BLT 33 for -4 yards (D.Hightower).
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep right to T.Smith to NE 44 for 23 yards (D.McCourty).
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to NE 13 for 6 yards (J.Mayo).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short left to A.Boldin to NE 5 for 8 yards (M.Cole; D.McCourty).

4th Quarter
J.Flacco pass short middle to A.Boldin for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep left to T.Smith to NE 31 for 16 yards (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to J.Jones to NE 11 for 6 yards (B.Spikes).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to A.Boldin for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to J.Jones [B.Spikes].
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to A.Boldin.


Ok, so according to espn's designations, here's how it breaks down:

Short Left: 2-7, 13 yds
Short Middle: 7-7, 83 yds, 1 td
Short Right: 7-10, 53 yds, 2 td
TOTAL SHORT: 16-24, 149 yds, 3 td, 123.0 rating

Deep Left: 3-6, 67 yds
Deep Middle: 0-1, 0 yds
Deep Right: 1-4, 23 yds
TOTAL DEEP: 4-11, 90 yds, 66.5 rating

For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider the 16-yarder to Smith in the 4th quarter a "deep" pass, but more of a "medium" pass, but whatever. Long story short, Flacco did what many of us here thought he wouldn't be able to do: he shredded the Pats with underneath stuff and marched them down the field successfully.

For comparison's sake, using the same ESPN designations, here were Brady's "deep" passes:

(No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to W.Welker
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd [D.Ellerbe].
(No Huddle) T.Brady pass deep left to B.Lloyd to BLT 20 for 16 yards (C.Williams).
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to D.Branch.
(No Huddle) T.Brady pass deep right to W.Welker to NE 49 for 24 yards (B.Pollard; C.Graham).
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to D.Branch [H.Ngata].
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left to W.Welker to BLT 24 for 36 yards (C.Graham).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left intended for B.Lloyd INTERCEPTED by C.Williams at BLT -5.

So Brady was 3-8 for 76 yards and an INT (rating of 33.3) on deep balls. If the pick was just an incomplete pass his rating would have been 72.9, better than Flacco's.

Flacco only completed one more "deep" pass than Brady did, but I would suggest that the *threat* of the deep ball opened up the middle of the field more for Baltimore than it did for New England. And, of course, the fact that NE couldn't get any pressure on Flacco meant that he just ripped the Pats apart underneath.

bagwell368

Deep threat? Another Lloyd with NFL leading YAC would do it.

Face facts:

Brady can no longer throw the deep pass with accuracy like in the past - all those shoulder scopes and age is taking it's toll. Take a chill pill - some weeks he can, and others he can't. Overall, he's a long way from 2007, and its not just the personal or offensive philosophy.

The OL is calibrated to give protection for so long, and not much longer, it's risky for Brady to throw more then 3-5 25+ yard passes a game.

Brady's foot speed and pocket presence are both dropping. How many times did he duck at shadows this year while trying to pass?

Forward:

In terms of the Pats short/medium offense, Gronk and AH take the role of tall physical possession WR's. Welker is the slot and a grand one he has been.

Lloyd is a good X - in particular for the money. Don't forget the Pats coach the rec's to hit the ground after the catch unless nice YAC can be made.

Drafting a Z with a top pick is very risky because so many can't decipher the offense here, and many of the rest are ego/party boys for whatever reason. I'd rather pay FA prices for one than take a stab with a pick that is liable to be better used for DT, CB, RT (if Vollmer isn't signed).

We either sign Welker for 2 or 3 years or he's gone, in which case we sign Edelman for slot. If Edelman, get a developmental guy in here too.

Stallworth and Branch are gone for good. We need a Z, and Welker leaving will cover much/most of that cost for a FA.

bagwell368

True or not (I think not), that Branch is dead and buried, who is the stand-in?

ivanvamp

Deion Branch's playoff game log for NE during his first stint with the Pats:
vs Ten ('04) - 3 rec, 10 yds, 0 td
vs Ind ('04) - 2 rec, 23 yds, 0 td
vs Car ('04) - 10 rec, 143 yds, 1 td
vs Ind ('05) - 1 rec, 15 yds, 0 td
at Pit ('05) - 4 rec, 116 yds, 1 td (added a rushing TD as well)
vs Phi ('05) - 11 rec, 133 yds, 0 td (won MVP)
vs Jax ('06) - 2 rec, 36 yds, 0 td
at Den ('06) - 8 rec, 153 yds, 0 td

TOTALS: 41 rec, 629 yds, 15.3 avg, 2 td
AVG GAME: 5 rec, 79 yds


Wes Welker's playoff game log for NE:
vs Jax ('08) - 9 rec, 54 yds, 1 td
vs SD ('08) - 7 rec, 56 yds, 1 td
vs NYG ('08) - 11 rec, 103 yds, 0 td
vs NYJ ('10) - 7 rec, 57 yds, 0 td
vs Den ('11) - 6 rec, 55 yds, 1 td
vs Bal ('11) - 6 rec, 53 yds, 0 td
vs NYG ('11) - 7 rec, 60 yds, 0 td
vs Hou ('12) - 8 rec, 131 yds, 0 td
vs Bal ('12) - 8 rec, 117 yds, 1 td

TOTALS: 69 rec, 686 yds, 9.9 avg, 4 td
AVG GAME: 8 rec, 76 yds

I dunno...seems pretty comparable to me. Welker certainly has been more consistent - no game with fewer than 6 receptions, and no game with fewer than 53 yds. Four games with 8+ receptions, and three games with 103+ yards. Branch, meanwhile, had 5 of his 8 games with fewer than 5 receptions, so as Cris Carter once put it, Deion has had a tendency to disappear at times, but his big games were more explosive.

Both have been terrific playoff performers for the Patriots.

bagwell368

The 2004 Pats are probably the best Pats team in history. Also the way the game is ref'd and played is much different. I'm sure BB would rather the 2001-2006 era rules and team make-up anytime, but those days are gone. Do you want him to be anachronism?

Tell me, what franchise matches the Pats in SB, playoff, or regular season winning %? What franchise has had more of their final camp cuts scarfed by other teams over the past couple of years?

So, we've been great or very competitive every year but 2002, 2005, 2008 (no Brady). Any other outfits out there that can say that?

So, you just wish for what cannot be? Cool story.